30 Super Carry Review: A Critical Look and Comparison
The 30 Super Carry is a handgun cartridge introduced by Federal Ammunition as a new product for concealed carry and self defense applications.
If you’d like to read about why I’m not a fan of this new cartridge, or at least how it has been marketed, make sure you keep scrolling and check out my full 30 Super Carry review below.
Table of contents
30 Super Carry Background
30 Super Carry Specs
- Bullet Diameter 8mm / .313″
- Bullet Weights 100-115 gr
- Muzzle Velocity 1250 fps
- Muzzle Energy 347 ft/lbs
- Cartridge Length 1.169″
- Case Length 0.827″
- Base Diameter 0.345″
- Max Pressure 50,000 psi
The 30 Super Carry (30 SC) is perhaps easiest described as a slightly skinnier and weaker 9mm Parabellum.
The 30 SC is the same length as the 9mm, however, being 1mm narrower in diameter than the 9mm, is slightly weaker than the 9mm (less case volume and lighter bullet) but twelve 30 SC rounds can fit into a magazine that only holds ten 9mm rounds.
However, the trade-off is less energy and expansion. For more, make sure you see the 30 Super Carry vs 9mm comparison below.
The 30 Super Carry was clearly introduced by Federal as a product for the Concealed Carry (CCW) / Self Defense market. This is clear both from the name of the cartridge and also the fact that it is too small for pistol competitions (USPSA/IDPA).
The IDPA rulebook currently allows 9mm (9×19) as the smallest cartridge allowed and the USPSA rulebook doesn’t allow bullets narrower than 0.354″ (the 30 Super Carry is 0.313″).
30 Super Carry Review – Our Thoughts
There are two approaches I can take to reviewing the 30 Super Carry:
The “snarky” approach:
If you use a 9mm pistol for defense and you’d rather have a cartridge that has less energy, makes smaller holes in bad guys, has smaller hollow-point cavities for less expansion, is too small to use in competitions for practice, is harder to find in stores, and is more expensive, then the 30 Super Carry is for you!
The “more options are better” approach:
Hey, look! Federal came out with a new cartridge that you might like. It is effectively between a 9mm Luger and a 380 ACP and, if that’s what you’ve been looking for, then this might be a good cartridge for you.
When I first published this article, it was heavy on the snark. This is largely due to how Federal chose to market this round.
However, it is also from my frustration that our industry seems to introduce new products, especially new ammunition calibers, that are usually a couple of minor tweaks to an existing product, touted as “innovation,” and are either a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist or they’re effectively a reintroduction of something that existed previously.
Why does this matter?
Aren’t more options better?
Why do you care so much?
Well, those are VERY fair questions that I’ve been asking myself.
My answer is that I see our role as GunUniversity to educate shooters and share our honest opinions about firearms.
This includes new shooters that may be looking for their first firearm purchase and might be strongly influenced by marketing. This also includes shooters that are always looking for improvements and want to chase the latest/greatest caliber each year.
For the reasons below, I do not think that a new shooter should adopt this cartridge, especially as their first/only cartridge.
Like it or not, you are here to read my opinion. I am a critic, just like a food critic or movie critic, and my job on this site is to make sure you are getting an honest opinion (regardless of whether you agree with it).
If this was FoodUniversity and Taco Bell came out with a hamburger our review of it might very well be negative and encourage you to avoid it and find better hamburgers elsewhere. Our job would be to give you our honest opinion and no claims of “aren’t more options better?” nor “well, I think it’s the best thing ever!” would change our review of that particular product.
Likewise, here we are to give our honest opinion of the 30 Super Carry.
If you agree or disagree with me, please share why in the comments below. We love differing opinions and learning from each other.
Marketing of the 30 Super Carry
You might think that the marketing of a product should not be a part of the review of the product.
In this case, I disagree.
Let me explain…
Jason Vanderbrink, President of Federal Ammunition said in a product launch video, “we think it’s very appropriate to launch the biggest product Federal has ever launched in its 100th year anniversary.”
And on their Facebook Page, Federal calls the 30 Super Carry “The most revolutionary advancement in self-defense history.”
Those are VERY bold claims.
Note they didn’t claim in CCW history, or even just firearm/ammo history, but ALL self-defense history.
Not sharp sticks, not knives, not firearms, not the metallic cartridge, not hollow-points, not body armor …. the 30 Super Carry.
I think that these choices by Federal and their words matter.
This is especially true when we’re talking about self-defense.
In this video by Federal ammo, Jim Gilliland (RLTW) introduces the 30 Super Carry cartridge:
Also, here are some info sheets from Federal with information about their new round:
In the video above, Federal spends time comparing this new round to 45 ACP to show increased capacity and less recoil. I think that this is misleading because 9mm Luger, the closest comparison to this new round, also has higher capacity and less recoil than 45 ACP.
As an analogy, imagine that Chevy came out with a new pickup truck that was slightly smaller and weaker than a Ford F-150. It would be a misleading for Chevy to compare the new imaginary truck in their marketing to a dump truck for fuel efficiency and passenger seating.
Instead, since Federal is claiming this bridges the gap between 380 AUTO and 9mm Luger (of which I was unaware there was a gap/need here), the recoil and capacity should be compared to those two rounds.
If that’s what they did instead, there would still be an increase in capacity, although not as drastic, however, the recoil comparisons would likely tell a different story.
The 30 Super Carry should have more recoil than a 380 Auto and just about as much as a 9mm and perhaps even feel a bit “snappier” due to the faster bullet.
In the info sheets above, Federal explains that the ballistic performant of this new cartridge “far exceed[s] 380 Auto.” 380 AUTO is generally known as the weakest commonly available center-fire pistol cartridge. I don’t think that it is something to brag about if your new high-performance cartridge out-performs 380 AUTO.
In fact, using the 380 AUTO as the comparison makes me doubt the 30 Super Carry even more.
Instead, a much more appropriate comparison ballistically is the 9mm Luger. We make such a comparison here in this review and also below.
It’s Weaker than 9mm Luger
It wasn’t too long ago that many people scoffed at 9mm as an effective defensive cartridge because it was “too weak.” In fact, when I took a Gunsite course in 2003, the restrooms had pegs to hang your handgun and the 9mm peg was labelled “380 magnum” teasing that 9mm was nothing more than a stronger 380 Auto.
Thankfully, modern pistol fighting has evolved (sorry, Weaver stance) and with modern 9mm ammo designs and performance, the 9mm is an effective self defense round (and what I carry everyday: a Sig P365).
However, in my opinion, the 9mm is the bottom (or very near the bottom) of effective energy for self defense.
The 30 Super Carry? Even lower energy.
Now, I am NOT saying that more energy is always better.
For example, I don’t recommend 10mm for a daily carry gun.
However, when 9mm is widely available in any NATO country, perhaps the most widely available handgun cartridge, it has been tested and has endured for years, there are many pistols and magazines for it and the ammo is inexpensive for training, I don’t understand why I’d want something that has less energy and performance than a 9mm.
By being a smaller diameter, the 30 Super Carry will make smaller holes in bad guys and have smaller hollow points which will expand less.
The point of using a firearm in self defense is to stop a bad guy from doing a bad thing.
When using a firearm, an accurate shot is crucial. However, with the same shot placement, more energy, bigger bullets and expansion are better.
As pointed out above, the 30 Super Carry has less energy than 9mm. Strike one.
The 30 Super Carry is a smaller diameter than 9mm. Strike two.
As you can see in Federal’s info above, it also has less expansion. Strike three.
Heck, as far as bullet expansion goes, Federal’s own info/graphic above shows that 380 AUTO expands more than 30 Super Carry.
I don’t know the answer here but it surely invites the question: what’s better, 10 effective rounds or 12 less effective rounds?
If you answered the latter, does your opinion change when you take availability and training into account?
More isn’t ALWAYS Better
As explained above in the section on 30 Super Carry vs 9mm, the 30 Super Carry can theoretically fit 12 rounds in magazine that could only hold 10 rounds of 9mm.
Yes, it is true that more rounds in a gunfight, all else being equal, is better.
I added the “all else being equal” above because it is not true to just say “more rounds is always better.”
For example, a Kel Tec PMR-30 pistol holds 30 rounds of .22 Win Mag ammo. If Federal wants to make the point that “more is better,” then perhaps they’d agree that 22 Win Mag is even better?
On that point, if the marketing for this round is “outperforms 380 Auto and more capacity than 9mm,” (it is), then 22 Magnum is even better than 30 Super Carry!
You can fit 30 rounds of 22 Magnum in a handgun compared to 12 of 30 Super Carry and 22 Magnum has 324 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. That surely outperforms 380 Auto by over 100 ft/lbs and is as close to 30 Super Carry in energy as 30 Super Carry is to 9mm Luger.
Of course, I’m not claiming that Federal is trying to say more is always better, I am merely pointing out that “more is better” and “outperforms 380” without other considerations makes 22 Win Mag even more convincing that 30 Super Carry.
And, in this case, getting more ammo into a handgun with the negative trade-offs of less energy, smaller holes in bad-guys, smaller expansion, rarer ammo, more expensive ammo, also the magazines and guns that have nowhere near the history of testing as 9mm is not worth it in my opinion.
You may completely disagree and love this new round. That’s great and exactly what the free market is for.
However, if you’re a new shooter, please don’t jump to this round just yet or you may be stuck having a hard time finding affordable ammo to practice with.
Federal makes this point in their marketing of this new round: “in armed threat scenarios, only one in five shots find the mark.”
If that’s true, that’s shocking.
However, as someone pointed out on social media in response to this review, 10 rounds of 9mm results in 2 fatal/effective hits whereas 12 rounds of 30 SC results in 2.4 fatal/effective hits.
First, I see that math shows still less than three effective hits. 🙂
Second, if capacity was everything, the Kel Tec PMR30 would result in 6 effective hits from its 30 round capacity. So would the Kel Tec CP33 with its 33 round capacity.
There is one area where there is not “more” when it comes to 30 Super Carry: Availability and Practice.
If you’re going to carry a firearm for self defense you should train – a LOT!
And although shooting competitions are NOT intended to replace training for self defense scenarios, they are EXCELLENT and getting you comfortable and familiar with a firearm and how to operate and shoot it quickly and accurately under stress.
Unfortunately, the 30 Super Carry is too small to be used in the two most popular action shooting competitions, USPSSA and IDPA.
This is especially true if the 1 in 5 statistic above is true. I think MORE training, for everyone, is better.
30 Super Carry is going to be more expensive than and harder to find than 9mm. This means that training will be more difficult and more expensive. This will surely result in LESS training.
For me, I’d rather have more ammo at home with which I can practice and compete with more energy for CCW than two more rounds of weaker and rare ammo in my gun.
30 Super Carry is More Expensive than 9mm
30 Super Carry is more expensive than 9mm ammo and up until it surpasses 9mm Luger in popularity world-wide, it will likely always be more expensive.
This matters… a lot. If you’re going to effectively train with your handgun, which you should, you can afford more training with 9mm than you can with 30 Super Carry.
Just due to economy of scale, 9mm will be cheaper to manufacture as long as it is extremely more common than 30 Super Carry.
It is Less Available
30 Super Carry gives me serious concerns about availability: for both itself AND 9mm.
Let me explain.
We are currently in an ammo shortage where manufacturers can not keep up with ammo demand.
The most popular pistol cartridge is BY FAR is the 9mm and manufacturers simply can not make enough.
When Federal, for example, dedicates machines in their factory to make 30 Super Carry, those machines can not be used to make more 9mm.
Therefore, resources dedicated to 30 Super Carry are resources that could have been used to catch up on 9mm supply. This means less 9mm on the shelves than otherwise there could have been (even if they only add new machines for 30 Super Carry, those machines could have been added for 9mm).
There will also be availability concerns for 30 Super Carry. Not only because it is a new cartridge but also that will not have near the widespread adoption as 9mm and therefore some retailers just may not even carry it, or if they do they’ll carry one SKU.
Also, just as it will be more expensive to make 30 Super Carry (above), the process will also be slower. Components, dies, and know-how will be scarcer for 30 Super Carry and manufacturers won’t be able to make as much in the same amount of time as they can for 9mm.
UPDATE: Jim Gilliland, the man in the Federal video above, came by for a comment about this review and I’m glad he did. I’m always happy to learn more about something and change my opinion. Hopefully Jim and I can connect and we can have a good discussion about this round – who knows, I might be educated and change my thoughts. I don’t know him personally but I respect his background and reputation. Fingers crossed.
He made a great point about 6.5 CM that I agree with. It took me a while to adopt that cartridge and I’m glad I waited or I would have a bunch of guns in 260 Rem (which came out years earlier and is effectively the same thing).
He also made a point that Federal doesn’t just have one machine that needs to be switched off to run this cartridge and that I am ill informed. Respectfully, I was a Vice President for Remington Outdoor Company and do understand firearm and ammunition manufacturing (although maybe not too well if you look at Remington now – see, I can pick on myself, too).
Regardless of the specific manufacturing details of this new round, I can safely assume a few things: MANY dollars and man-hours were spent on this new round. This includes R&D, sourcing, manufacturing, and marketing. All of these “business calories” could have been spent improving and increasing 9mm, and other in-demand calibers, production.
There is at least one machine making 30 SC that is not making 9mm. There is at least one materials sourcing person finding resources for 30 SC that is not finding them for 9mm. There is at least part of a shipping truck used for 30 SC that is not filled with 9mm.
30 Super Carry Summary
As if I haven’t already made enough bold statements, here’s another:
I feel so strongly that the 30 Super Carry is a bad idea that I’m going to use it as a measuring stick to see who in our industry is being paid for their opinions.
Of course, people can disagree with me. However, absent a compelling counter-argument to each of my issues with this new round above, I am going to assume that anyone who calls this “ground-breaking” or the “best new self defense round” is a shill and is getting paid to pretend like they like the round.
This is a problem for me – your life may depend on an opinion that you didn’t realize was a commercial.
Keep an eye out for me and see if I’m right.
As far as innovation goes, I applaud it. You may have just rolled your eyes at that sentence coming from me after reading this article. If you did, please hear me out.
Innovation is GREAT!
However, I do not consider this to be “innovation.”
Most new cartridges, like this one, are just shifting some dimensions around. Just look at how many wildcat cartridges are made in garages and basements across America every year. They might be cool, but they’re not “innovation.”
For example, I could cut the 30 Super Carry brass down a bit, make a reduced load for it and call it the 30 Super Lite and claim how it bridges the gap between 30 Super Carry and .380, it allows less recoil for recoil sensitive shooters, and allows for a smaller grip size for shooters with smaller hands.
All of those claims would be true.
None of what I would have done in this thought experiment should be considered “innovation.”
For example, here’s a cartridge designed in 1917 by Remington that is effectively the same dimensions and designed for a pistol: 7.65x20mm Longue Or, does anyone remember the 45 GAP where Glock made the 45 ACP shorter for a smaller pistol grip?
Again, if you disagree with me, that’s great! If we completely agree on everything then one of us isn’t necessary. 😉
I’d love to see your thoughts in the comments below.
And remember, before you cry about me crying, understand that my whole point is to give an unvarnished opinion on things at Gun University, good or bad. You won’t find paid shills here.
And, when the company claims that this product is the greatest innovation in the entire history of self-defense, it’s asking for a critical eye, no?
You may also think I’m just negative about this new round for the sake of stirring up controversy or being negative. Unfortunately that’s the reality I deal with on both ends. When I think that 300 PRC is an incredible new product (which I did), I received a LOT of complaints that I was overly excited about it and hyping it up too much.
It appears that if I am “too positive’ or “too negative” about a new product, it makes some people unhappy.
I can only promise you one thing: my true opinion that is not influence by a paycheck, free product(s), or advertising dollars.
If I’m wrong about this new cartridge, and it takes off to be the hottest new thing ever, I’ll be happy. But, until then, I will not recommend this when I’m asked “what gun/cartridge should I get for my ccw?”
30 Super Carry Pros and Cons
- Higher potential capacity than 9mm
- Less energy than 9mm
- Smaller expansion than 380 AUTO
- Rarer / More Expensive than 9mm
- Similar recoil to 9mm
- Can’t be used in competitions
- Limited firearm/ammo options
- Very high pressure cartridge
30 Super Carry vs 9mm Luger
The 30 Super Carry by Federal Ammo is the same length as and slightly narrower/skinnier than 9mm Parabellum.
Both are 1.169″ long as an overall length but the 9mm has a base diameter of 0.391″ and the 30 Super Carry is 0.046″ (just over 1mm) skinnier with a base diameter of 0.345″
It shoots a 100 gr .312″ diameter projectile at 1250 fps (according to federal for their HST load of this round) which results in 347 ft/lbs of muzzle energy.
Compare that to 9mm Luger which shoots a 124 gr .355″ diameter projectile at 1150 fps (again, using federal’s HST numbers for a fair comparison) which results in 364 ft/lbs of energy.
When compared to the 9mm +P HST load by Federal, the 30 Super Carry looks even worse.
| Specifications | 30 Super Carry | 9mm | 9mm +P |
|---|---|---|---|
| Manufacturer | Federal | Federal | Federal |
| Product Line | HST | HST | HST |
| Bullet Weight | 100 gr | 124 gr | 124 gr |
| Bullet Diameter | .312 | .355 | .355 |
| Muzzle Energy | 347 ft/lbs | 364 ft/lbs | 396 ft/lbs |
| Energy @ 50 yds | 283 ft/lbs | 303 ft/lbs | 323 ft/lbs |
| Expansion | .530 | .571 | .571 |
| Pressure (psi) | 50,000 | 35,000 | 38,500 |
| Overall Length | 1.169" | 1.169" | 1.169" |
| Base Diameter | 0.345" | 0.391" | 0.391" |
There is one metric that is “better” for the 30 Super Carry when compared it to the 9×19, and that is magazine capacity.
Federal claims that a magazine which can only fit 10 rounds of 9mm can fit 12 rounds of 30 Super Carry. More on this below our feature by feature comparison.
30 Super Carry vs 9mm Luger: Energy
Although it is close, 9mm Luger has more energy in available and comparable loads (see the data from Federal above).
The 9mm HST load from Federal produces 364 ft/lbs of energy (396 ft/lbs for +P) whereas the 30 SC produces 347 ft/lbs of energy (5% less energy for standard, 12% less for +P).
WINNER: 9mm Luger
30 Super Carry vs 9mm Luger: Recoil
Although it is close, the 30 Super Carry has less recoil. According to the JBM Recoil Calculator, the 124gr 9mm load above should have 7.3 ft/lbs of recoil energy and a recoil impulse of 0.7 lb/s. The 30 Super Carry has 5.8 ft/lbs of energy and the same recoil impulse of 0.7 lb/s.
It is unclear if these are real-world numbers. However, here is a video where Ian McCollum of Forgotten Weapons, James Reeves of The Firearm Blog, and Jeremy of The Truth About Guns say that they can’t tell the difference between the recoil of 9mm and 30 Super Carry
WINNER: 30 Super Carry
30 Super Carry vs 9mm Luger: Expansion
Expansion size of a hollow point bullet is important when determining its effectiveness for a self defense round. According to Federal, their 9mm load above expands to 0.571″ and their 30 Super Carry expands to 0.530″
WINNER: 9mm Luger
30 Super Carry vs 9mm Luger: Penetration
According to Federal (this has not been tested), the 30 SC penetrates 15.5″ into ballistic gel and their 9mm load penetrates 14.5″.
It is unclear whether this is better or worse.
A minimum of 12″ of penetration is typically the standard for self defense handgun ammunition. Therefore, it could be argued that more is better and 30 SC would win.
However, over penetration is undesirable as energy is wasted outside of the target (stopping power) and bullets may continue to fly and impact others. Therefore it could be argued too much penetration is worse and 9mm Luger would win.
WINNER: Draw
30 Super Carry vs 9mm Luger: Availability
Without a doubt, 9mm Luger is WAY more available than 30 Super Carry and this will continue until and if 30 Super Carry becomes a more popular cartridge and is adopted by militaries world-wide.
WINNER: 9mm Luger
30 Super Carry vs 9mm Luger: Cost
With a simple supply and demand argument, 9mm should be more cost effective as long as it is more popular and made by so many manufacturers world-wide. Additionally, the current supply of existing 9m Luger ammo in the world will help keep its cost down.
WINNER: 9mm Luger
30 Super Carry vs 9mm Luger: Capacity
You can fit more rounds of 30 Super Carry into a magazine than 9mm Luger.
WINNER: 30 Super Carry
30 Super Carry vs 9mm Luger: Platforms
There are many more platforms available for 9mm Luger (handguns, rifles, parts, etc) than there are for 30 Super Carry.
WINNER: 9mm Luger
30 Super Carry vs 9mm Luger: CONCLUSION
Drumroll, please…
When comparing the 30 SC to 9mm in the categories of energy, recoil, expansion, penetration, availability, cost, capacity, and available platforms, 9mm ends up with 5 wins and 1 tie whereas 30 Super Carry ends up with 2 wins and 1 tie.
Even if we give the draw above to 30 SC, 9mm Luger would still win 5 to 3.
OVERALL WINNER: 9mm Luger
30 Super Carry Ballistics
We have found some information online about the specifications for this cartridge. However, we can NOT verify the accuracy of the information. It seems legitimate, but until we see the actual info from SAAMI or Federal, we should assume that this might be inaccurate.
According to the information found here, the 30 Super Carry, which looks like it was previously being called 8mm Super Carry, has a chamber pressure of 50,000 psi.
If this information is accurate, this is absurdly high!
Let me compare this to some other calibers to give you a reference as to how high these pressures are. I will use cartridges that I already consider high pressure or, at least, powerful for comparison.
When I think of a high pressure and/or powerful handgun cartridges, I think of things like 10mm AUTO, 357 Sig, and .40 S&W.
Here’s a table of handgun cartridge pressures for comparison to see how high the 30 Super Carry’s pressure is:
| Cartridge | Pressure (psi) |
|---|---|
| 30 Super Carry | 50,000 |
| 357 SIG | 40,000 |
| 9mm +P | 38,500 |
| 10mm AUTO | 37,500 |
| 50 AE | 36,000 |
| 40 S&W | 35,000 |
| 357 Magnum | 35,000 |
| 9mm Luger | 35,000 |
| 45 AUTO | 21,000 |
To put this into even better perspective, a “proof load” is a cartridge in a certain caliber loaded to a pressure (up to 130%) greater than the maximum pressure for that round to test the safety of a firearm. When a firearm has been fired with this ultra high pressure round, the firearm is said to have been “proofed” and deemed safe.
Proof loads are no joke – they are literally made to determine if a firearm will explode under high pressures. When firearms are proofed, they are typically fired within fixtures within a safe container so that nobody is hurt if the gun explodes.
10mm Auto handguns are known for beating themselves to death eventually because it is such a powerful round. Therefore, a 10mm Auto proof load is SERIOUS business.
A 10mm proof load is still less pressure than a standard 30 Super Carry round. (10mm AUTO max pressure of 37,500 psi x 1.3 = 48,750 psi)
For another interesting comparison, .223 Remington’s max pressure is 55,000 psi.
An image of the supposed dimensions of the cartridge was also found:
Federal has promoted the new cartridge with muzzle velocity and energy but they have not shared all of the ballistic data for it that they do for their other cartridges. Hopefully, Federal will share this soon and we’ll update this when they do.
Ammunition Available for 30 Super Carry
We only know of 4 brands of 30 Super Carry ammo so far: Federal, Speer, CCI, and Remington.
Note, all four of those brands are owned by the same company, Vista Outdoor, which is the company that came out with this new round.
The Federal brand is offering a range load in their American Eagle line and a self-defense load in their (excellent) HST line.
American Eagle 100gr FMJ
Federal HST 100gr JHP
The Speer brand is offer a self defense load in their (excellent) Gold Dot line.
Speer Gold Dot 115gr HP
The Remington Brand is also offering a target and self defense load.
Remington UMC 100gr FMJ
Remington HTP 100gr JHP
And CCI is offering a 115 gr target load.
CCI Blazer Brass 115gr FMJ
Handguns Available in 30 Super Carry
We only know of two handguns available so far in this caliber…
Davidsons currently only lists Smith & Wesson Shield EZ in 30 Super Carry but there may be more available at that link soon.
Federal has announced that they worked with Nighthawk Customs for a 1911 in this new Caliber.
30 Super Carry FAQ
About Ryan Cleckner
Ryan is a former special operations sniper (1/75 Ranger) and current firearms attorney, firearms industry executive, university lecturer, and bestselling author of the Long Range Shooting Handbook.
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There is definately a lot to find out about this subject. I like all the points you made
Thank you for the comparison! I was looking at a 30SC but didn’t know a ton about it so I left the S&W Shield EZ at the gun store until I did my research. I was super slow to come on board with the 9mm due to it’s not so great reputation in the military. I was a Navy Seabee and we still had the .45 ACP in our arsenal until 1997.
Now I carry a 9mm Shield with 147 grain Sig V-Crown daily.
But I think I’m going to hard pass on the 30SC, I see no benefit.
Not sure how the author could type while sucking himself off so vigorously.
Your wife has the pictures if you’d like to see how I do it.
Actually, the .380 is not the smallest centerfire cartridge. That would be the .25 or .32.
True. That’s why I wrote “commonly available” instead of “smallest.”
When Underwood+Lehigh offer 30SC, that’s when it will be a good choice. Until then…
Here is my “take.” To put 30SC in the best possible light; it should be compared to 380 ACP full stop. If you look at the myriad of 380 tests with “bare” gel the 380 seems to do OK. The same tests with heavy clothing, not so much. The high standard velocity of 30 SC helps insure reliable expansion. The high standard velocity combined with smaller diameter helps ensure deeper penetration. Reliable cycling also seems to be a recurrent problem with 380 pistols not found on the heavier recoiling 30 SC. Oh yes, more rounds; but think 20 round mags. Rangers lead the way!
The reason I don’t like this round is because it takes resources away from the 327 Magnum I am deep into 327 Magnum with three guns a short snub nose Taurus carry gun a 4.2 inch long Ruger single seven and a Henry 327 mag lever gun since this round came out I cannot find any ammo for any of those guns so yeah fed please please make more ammo for the 327 and stop making this BS that we never needed
Thank you for reading and for your comment, Ken. You’re making a great point as to why the 30 SC is a bad idea – you have three guns in 327 mag and you can’t find any ammo for those guns. Respectfully, I would compare the 30 SC to the 327 mag – I think it’ll also be obsolete soon and anyone who bought into the marketing hype will be stuck with guns for which they can no longer find ammo.
What are the facts about recoil? Is recoil from the 30 SC the same as 9 mm? Is recoil snappier from 30 SC than 9 mm? I don’t want an opinion on this, give me the facts.
Can there be a non-opinion fact about “snappiness”?
ATTENTION EVERYONE!!! The 9mm round seriously flawed and inadequate, we NEED a new cartridge to replace it!!!
Wait, never-mind the 9mm round is just fine.
I’m all for the more argument either capacity or options, but I’d rather see more options to bridge the gap between.45 and 9mm, I’m still in the camp of 9mm is slightly anemic for self defense and only slightly and not completely because of ammo improvements, my wife who isn’t necessarily recoil sensitive for the most part (shoots my full size 1911 and 357 mag revolver no problem) is having a really hard time finding a carry pistol she really likes that’s not a 9mm
Having read all of the above comments I find it interesting how often the 327 Fed is mentioned and with hardly any negative narrative. It would be the perfect chambering for ss walking sticks built around old 30 cal barrel stubs . Also, when you can get one the Henry lever actions in 327 are a brilliant companion to the 327 wheel guns.. Now, what is really needed is a Lee Loader in 327 fed mag.
Really good article. I have wondered about the “target’ for this new round. All of the advertising was attractive until you began to think about the actual use for this ammunition. You really addressed the cogent facts minus the hype. Thanks.
Conceal Carry is all about compromise. Micro 9mm is the physical manifestation of compromise in this regard. Herein the problem that Micro 9s are not good shooters in a big-pistol way (which 9mm is designed for), and are not good concealers in a small-pistol way (ie: .380s). They aren’t actually good in either way.
Micro 9s are therefore a compromise we have come to accept as ‘best’ when nothing about them in terms of shoot-ability is truly best. Minimal effectiveness of a 9mm out of a short barrel. Hard to shoot without a ton of experience and practice. Virtually as expensive as better shooting larger pistol. But they are smaller option in 9mm, 9mm is cheap, and the hype is immense.
Most people I know buy a Micro for the hype (including me), end up carrying/shooting for awhile, switch to their bigger pistols at the range, and eventually end up carrying the bigger pistol they had before buying their micro, and/or switch back to their smaller 38s//380s they carried before their micro.
30 Super Carry is designed as a non-compromising option for this smaller CC pistol market. We should be happy. Until we realize this is also just one more compromise catering to our CC desires. The two main detractors are the cost of the rounds, and the compatibility of ammo between our carry guns and our range guns.
A CC gun should be easy to use without a ton of training, easy to shoot, and easy to carry. (ie: .380s, 38 Special). A range gun should be fun to shoot accurately without punishing recoil, and simple to handle/control wherein size and weight play a large factor. Micro 9s offer none of these benefits, and neither does 30 Super Carry.
I use a .32ACP NAA Guardian as my BUG/Shorts gun.
Unfortunately, .32acp is unobtainium.
Fortunately, the .30 SC seems to out perform my best .32acp loads, personal or OEM.
What is wrong with a cartridge that outperforms .32acp and doesn’t have rimlock issues?
I really enjoyed reading this article. Well-presented and stuck to the facts. Although I have multiple handguns, I normally carry my Bersa Thunder Plus in .380 ACP. 15+1 capacity and is comparable in size to a Walther PPK. Even with 16 rounds, it is still very light and easily concealed due to its small size. Regardless of cartridge, shot placement is key and as you correctly stated training is imperative. That doesn’t mean someone has to be at the range every week; however, they should train to the point that there is muscle memory. As far as the 30 Super Carry goes, it’s what I call a “fan boy round” or as you called it, a marketing round. I put it in the same category is .300 Blackout and 6.5 Creedmoor. There is nothing inherently “wrong” with them, they just don’t do anything other more common, available and cost-effective rounds do. In the case of .300 Blackout, it’s less powerful, less available and more expensive than 7.62×39. In the case of 6.5 Creedmore, it only outperforms .308 Winchester at ranges beyond the capability of the overwhelming majority of shooters and at those ranges there are far better cartridges to choose from. However, both of these examples have been effectively marketed to a shooting public who really doesn’t do their homework. I suspect that this will not be the case with 30 Super Carry as it will have a completely different target market/demographic in a segment already flooded with other well-known and more cost-effective rounds and a greater variety of weapon options. S/F. SgtMaj USMC (Ret), Primary Marksmanship Instructor
Finally, an honest, fact-based review of 30SC. Thank You. I can’t believe the number of web shills slobbering over on this cartridge. I agree with the statement that this borders on irresponsibility by Federal – at a time of ammo and material shortages — Federal should be focusing it’s energies on the more necessary 9mm rounds. My fervent belief is that this 30SC will fail to catch on and the industry can go back to real innovation that matters (i.e. finding ways to lower the cost ammo to make it more accessible).
For all the “new” products the industry keeps trying to sell us, we live in surprisingly cookie-cutter times. Each “new” pistol introduced by a big brand is immediately copied by ten competitors. I may or may not find a place for the .30 Super Carry in my arsenal, but I WILL give credit where it’s due. This is more than just another slight variation on everybody else 9mm or .380 subcompact…it’s an entirely new cartridge (albeit with historical analogs). The marketing is rubbish, yes, but introducing a new cartridge in a time of near total 9mm conformity took courage. If the marketing team had the insight to go after .380 instead of 9mm, they might have had a winner.
I hear your points. However, this can’t compete well with 380 can it? As far as I know, most 380 shooters want 380 for its lighter than 9mm recoil and its smaller platform. This 30 SC requires the same grip length of 9mm (not smaller) and the same recoil as 9mm (not lighter).
If a company were to build a gun around the .30 Super Carry, rather than just offer it as a new chambering in a “9mm gun” they could make the gun thinner and the grip shorter in height ( for a given magazine capacity). The question I would ask however, is whether this would be enough of a reduction in size to make a real world difference? As it is my P365, with a 12 round mag, conceals very well OWB, with just an untucked T-shirt as a cover garment. If SIG could reduce the size of this gun enough to make it practical to carry in the pocket of a pair of regular fit jeans, it would be a worthwhile alternative to a 9mm gun for deep carry. If not, the value of such a reduction in size would be more theoretical than real.
You talk about comparing apples to apples, but give the 22 wmr energy based on a RIFLE, not a handgun, where IF you get 150 ft lbs you’re doing great. This 30 sc is an attempt to get the 327 Federal Magnum ballistics out of an auto. ( I do love my .327! ) They did OK, but not great. My carry is a .40, but as I get older this 30sc is interesting. Now if only I could get one in CA…
Yeah, you’re a bit over the top. The new rounds could have good potential.
My problem isn’t so much with your opinion or your review, but your writing. You spend an inordinate amount of time (and screen real estate) reciting the same rehashed disclaimers practically dismissing your own opinion throughout the entire article. That’s not hyperbole. You mention agreeing and disagreeing and learning in several paragraphs. You revisit similar thoughts you’ve already expressed, worded in slightly different ways, leading to an incredibly redundant and repetitive piece of work. Offer an initial disclaimer of bias, citing whatever rational explanations you think are relevant, and move on. Don’t keep coming back to it.
State an opinion, and move on. You make the same opinion about “innovation” 4 or 5 different times. Often times just a few sentences from the last time you said it. I hope you don’t take my remarks as overly critical, but for a site (in name) called “gun university”, your content is anything but university-level writing. You could get to your point, more succinctly, more effectively, if you limit your analogies and restating the same thoughts in multiple locations of your article. Your content is good. Your information and insight is good. Your research, collection of data and information, is thorough. You just lack the ability to effectively convey those details.
That being said, this is the only article of yours I have ever read. It came up in a Google search for this caliber and, perhaps, you wrote it over a period of several days and kept coming back to continue work on it and that is justification for it being “all over the place”. Perhaps, I’m being overly critical, but I think it’s noteworthy it identify a “gun university” article doesn’t even follow anything resembling university-level writing standards. Your article doesn’t even contain a meaningful summary to tie it all together at the end.
My two cents.
I did keep coming back to it and need to tighten it up, for sure. Thank you for the feedback!
This take is pretty terrible.
First of all, “high pressure” is not a con. If it was, we’d still be using black powder equivalent loads. High pressure (within the tolerances the cartridge and firearm were designed for) is a plus. Higher pressure means better ballistic performance for the same dimensions.
We used to have .38 Special as the height of defensive loads. Then .357 Magnum took basically the same dimensions (slightly longer only for the safety effect of not being able to chamber in a firearm designed for .38 special) and cranked up the pressure to get far better ballistic performance. .357 Magnum dimensions are fine for a revolver, but it’s pretty long for a “feed through the grip” pistol design.
.45 ACP is an old cartridge using old pressure limits. .460 Rowland takes those same dimensions, cranks up the pressure, and gets performance nearly at .44 Magnum levels. 960 Rowland does the same thing for 9mm, taking it up well beyond the capabilities of the hottest 9mm +P+ loads.
These are great improvements if you’re planning on defending yourself from a bear, but they’re just wildly excessive for defense against humans. We don’t have the capability to design a pistol length projectile that will effectively put that energy to good use in stopping a human. It’ll blast right through and carry much of that energy with it.
.30 Super Carry is taking that same kind of improvement in bang for size and scaling the size down until the bang gives excellent terminal performance for defense against humans.
That expansion/penetration data is quite reasonable for a defensive pistol load. 12-18″ of penetration in calibrated gel is the FBI standard for good reason. Yes, they’re reporting a slightly smaller expanded size, but it’s a good trade for the increased capacity.
There are new cartridges developed all the time. They rarely succeed because the cost of investing in a cartridge that doesn’t take off is very high. However, Vista Outdoors has enough sway in the industry that this has a decent chance, especially with how hard they’re marketing it. That’s a good thing, because of all the concerns you had, the only one with real legs is the one about cost and availability, and those are only a concern if it doesn’t actually take off.
9mm is a well established incumbent. Finding room for a new cartridge that takes advantage of modern capabilities isn’t easy, but .30 Super Carry is the first pistol cartridge in a very long time that has a shot.
I appreciate your comments and view on this.
You could also put the .357 Sig in this discussion. More pressure, velocity and penetration than a 9mm with the same mag capacity & bullet diameter. Same cons as the 30SC, more expensive, scarcity of ammo and guns available, etc. But definitely fits the “more is better” tag
Honestly I love both 9mm and .380, and I have no fear of not being able to stop a threat with my .380. Shot placement is paramount and plenty of data proves it, but truly I love my .380s for pocket carry. With such high pressures I seriously doubt this cartridge can be offered in a pistol small enough for me to choose it over 9mm or .380. If the pistol is the size of a micro 9 I’ll go micro 9. If I need the pocket pistol and this cartridge can’t offer that then I’ll stick with .380. If there is also no recoil advantage to using this cartridge again I see no reason for it.
Yesterday I took my new Shield Plus in .30 Super Carry to the range along with my Shield 2.0 in 9mm. One thing that occurred to me when I laid the two guns down on the counter side by side, both with their extended magazines. The Shield 2.0 when fully loaded holds 9 rounds. The Shield Plus when fully loaded holds 17 rounds, yet externally they’re the same size. Yes, slightly lower power in the .30 Super Carry, but it’s a 7.62 round and we’ve used that size for a lot of applications for many years. The round penetrates and it expands.
I was only excited at first because it might open up the bullet selection for my 1943 M1 Carbine. And then I saw that the bastards picked .313 for the diameter…
The author is right to focus on practice in competitions. Buy something that you can shoot a lot of ammo through…
But I thought the .45GAP was the best thing ever.
.44 Cor-Bon
.424 DE Mag
Gyrojet
.45 GAP
The Zip gun
The Dardick revolver
The Turret guns
The list goes on and firearms mfgs insist on adding more to it.
22 mag out of a 5 inch (or less) barrel is NOT giving you 324 ft pounds.
More like 190, in its best iteration.
Facts are important.
And thank you for telling some of these people commenting on how you come off snarky to hit the x up top, if they dont like how u come off,don’t read it!!! If they think the review was too snarky and you come off as an asshole, then why the f#@k would they continue to read and also take the time to write a book about it. Lol, thank you man I don’t think it was snarky, more or less saying wtf? When did everyone but me want to bridge a gap between 9mm and 380. Idk but I think you are in a minority of people actually telling the truth about it. So again thanks.
Seems extremely similar to the 7.92×24mm S that Belgium VBR made over a decade ago. This one seems slightly slimmer, but the difference is minimal. At least that one could be made with cut down .30 carbine brass.
A couple of thoughts about the .30 SC:
I don’t know about the! Ballistic “bite” of this puppy, but I sure don’t like its bark. At 50,000 psi, the report is going to be like a hunting rifle. Good news, you used your pistol and saved your life. Bad news, you weren’t wearing any hearing protection and you have permanently damaged your hearing.
Looks to me like they need to do more work on the bullet for this round. A bit too much penetration and not quite enough expansion could be fixed. However, what we’ve seen seems to be penetration in bare gelatin. I’d like to see numbers for heavy winter clothing (Living in Montana makes you think about such things!)
The main thing about the .30 SC is increasing the number of rounds in a magazine. But how useful is that really going from 10 rounds to 12 in a modern subcompact pistol? If i can’t Now don’t get me wrong, i was quite happy about changing from 5 or 6 shots in a revolver to 7 to 10 in 9mm. Particularlty after discovering the 2+ hits expectation. I also like how a 10 round 9mm is a much smaller gun than it was 15 to 25 years ago. However…
Back when I was doing my first “combat handgun” training the gun of choice was a J- frame in .38 or .357. We were taught that 5 rounds should be “enough”; two shots for each of two bad guys plus a spare round. So I asked “what if there are three attackers?” The response has shaped my thinking about gun fighting ever since.
If you’re alone and attacted by 3 people, one of two things will happen. If they are unarmed, inexperienced and/or untrained they will probably run like hell when you pull your gun or when you fire a shot. If they are armed and either experienced or trained, you are probably going to be badly injured or not survive the encounter. And it doesn’t make a whole lot of different if you’re carrying a 38 snobby or high capacity automatic or an M16. Anything beyond one on two is almost going to end badly.
I hope comments from non-experts are OK, as I have zero industry knowledge. But I do have a tech-ish question:
This thing uses a lotta pressure but a short barrel. Could you not drop a longer barrel into a compact gun (so the barrel becomes longer than the frame) and get a Magnum pistol? .30 at normal speeds, no big deal. But with 50,000 psi it should top 1600fps in longish pistol tube, maybe 1800 in 8″.
Wouldn’t 1600-1800fps x .30 be about as good as 1450fps x .357?
I have zero direct experience or knowledge about this stuff, but it sounds like/feels like there’s a way to make this thing useful.
Wow a few days after announcement and I wonder if you had shot one? Too snarky for me and obvious bias for the 9mm. This is my first real concealed carry firearm. I have a bias for the 45 and I have several of those but they don’t make a very good conceal carry gun. This looks to me like it is darn near identical specs all things considered. 20 foot pounds different power doesn’t mean anything. I’ll pass on your reviews in the future..
Mike, thanks for stopping by to read the article and for taking the time to comment.
No, I haven’t shot one yet nor do I see the need to. If you’ll notice, not a single point I made above about why I think this round is a bad idea would be changed by shooting the cartridge myself.
If this is your first concealed carry handgun cartridge, are you open to the idea that you might be biased in trying to justify your decision?
Again, thanks for stopping by and commenting. However, if reading an opinion different from your own bothers you so greatly, we agree that perhaps you should find another source for your information. Here, we only give our honest opinions about firearms, ammunition, and accessories.
It has been a couple of months and it appears that I’ve already been proven right. The only opinions I’ve found from “experts” that support this cartridge are receiving money from Federal either as employees, sponsored shooters, or advertising dollars.
You lost me when you said you carry a P365. I’d guess you have a few hi points too that you think are better than Glocks 🤣 rubbish
I’m not following your logic. It seems I might have hurt your feelings about 30 Super Carry? Thanks for checking us out!
[NB: I heard you on the Hornady podcast and came over to check this out…*glad* I found this page!]
I’m pushing 60 so I could say I’m too old to be influenced by advertising. I could, but I’d be lying. *Everyone* is influence to some degree by good marketing, and even with a lot of water under the bridge, it can still be difficult to tell the honest evaluations from the commercials. I’m always thrilled to find someone who (a) knows more than me, or (b) has more experience than me, who is willing to give honest evaluations. So while you are still on probation, count me in as a regular reader here.
We appreciate you coming by to see our opinions on thins related to firearms. Chances are that you’ll find something with which you disagree – that’s great! If you agreed with everything we wrote, this would be a very boring place to be. 🙂
You lost me on the first paragraph.
It looks like you don’t understand the purpose of this round.
This round was developed to be better than 380acp and not to substitute 9mm.
If you carry 9mm it’s ok, but if you carry 380 than 30sp is better.
I do respect you tremendously for allowing me to express my opinion, even though you might not agree.
Thanks
We really appreciate your comment! You’re right – there’s a bigger improvement from 380 than the 9mm.
So here we are in 2022 with what is essentially a clone of the 7.65×21 Parabellum – i.e. .30 Luger, from 1898, but with much higher chamber pressure and a slightly heavier bullet (100 vs 93 grain). In 124 years we can’t do better than that? And is almost identical to 7.62×25 Tokarev, also with lower pressure but superior ballistics, dating back 70+ years. Seems like a solution desperately seeking a problem to solve, rather than vice versa.
I’ve carried a 1911 in 45 ACP for my entire adult shooting career. I’m Orange Gunsite, I’m Grey Gunsite.
I believe my next defensive handgun will be in 30 SC
Oddly enough it’s your writing that has me convinced.
It falls short of 9 but really not by much and if I’m going to concern myself with eking out a couple more rounds in capacity it’s not a bad deal at all
So thanks!
I’m glad that you’re here for information and that anything I wrote helped.
I think this will save countless innocent lives. How many humans are shot by stray rounds, poor shooters, drive byes and countless misses by poorly trained folks who never think about what is beyond their intended target. This round due to it’s weakness’s will work just fine in close and where it’s intended to be used in SELF defense yet due to its short comings will make all those not targeted a bit safer. It should be the required round a new CCW holder or anyone carrying less than a year or two. Just saying…
Not sure I could disagree more (unless I’m not understanding you?). If you think that stray rounds are a problem, how is more capacity better? This round penetrates more than 9mm (which means there’s more chance of over penetration/pass-through and hitting other things/people). I can’t see how it would make any bystander any safer – in fact, I think you could argue it would be worse). Add to that the less training that will occur because of the cost and scarcity of the ammo.
I gotta ask, how loud is this thing? I haven’t shot 327 Fed but have been told by one who has a revolver in that caliber that it is quite loud. For new shooters a loud report is just about as off putting as sharp recoil and could be debilitating in an actual defense situation without ear protection. The three evaluators at SHOT are gun guys acclimated to loud bangs, and commented like “It’s about the same as 9mm.” I wonder if they meant just the recoil or recoil and report?
yeah, but 15.5″ hits the g spot, 14.5″ does not.
15.5″x.530 expansion vs 14.5″x .570. less recoil= more shots on target for my wife who has RA and cant handle my 40 or the old ruger lcp 380 we got rid of. every one knows you shoot twice then reevaluate. 2 hst hollow points, even if the are .040″ smaller is still getting hit by a 1/2″ bullet doing mach FU.
itll do its business.
now, bullet avil, chamber pressure and other things you pointed out are on point. i disagree with the arguement about the bullet size. thats old school train of thought. today is about terminal ballistics and accuracy. rounds in target.
itll be a good round if you can get yer hands on em.
I haven’t seen any feedback yet that it has less recoil than 9mm?
So I personally think that 30 SC is a great round but has been marketed entirely wrong. It’s a round that while yes, the energy might be marginally less than 9mm, it will be just as effective. Energy, bullet weight, bullet diameter, while these measurements are good for reference, they don’t always mean that a round will be more or less effective than another. 45 is significantly larger than 10mm, but which is the more powerful and effective of the two? I think that 30 SC is close enough to 9mm that they will be about as effective as one another. So it shouldn’t be marketed as an in between 9mm and 380. A cartridge like that wouldn’t have much use. What it really is, is a 9mm with greater capacity. Don’t forget that the higher pressures have some advantages as well. Now I know some people aren’t a fan and they have their reasons, but I am personally a big supporter of ported or compensated handguns. Higher pressures lead to more effective compensation. Another thing that is think was done poorly is the guns that it is initially coming out in. The Shield+ was a good play, but the two single stack guns were kind of useless. By choosing a single stack you are automatically saying that you are ok with low capacity. Less bad is still bad. 30 SC could really shine in larger double stack handguns. I have a Glock 48 with shield arms S15 magazines that hold 15 rounds of 9mm. I performed an experiment to see how many rounds of 32 acp I could fit into the magazine since the diameter is comparable to 30 SC. I got 18+1 and was extremely close to getting 19+1. I’m betting that if the gun and magazine were designed specifically for it, I could have gotten 19+1. And I’m just saying 19+1 in a flush fit magazine, in a handgun which is basically a thinner, lighter Glock 19, in a caliber which is basically as effective as 9mm, I would take that any day. Now ammo availability and not being able to use this round for competition are legitimate grievances, but both of these problems would likely change if the round became popular enough. Personally, I don’t think that 30 SC will be a success, but I really hope that I’m wrong. I really think that it depends on whether people can ignore the 20 or 30 fewer foot pounds and the 0.043″ smaller diameter. Personally I think that this reason is ridiculous and it would make no real difference in an actual gunfight, but how long did it take people to realize that 9mm is not significantly less effective than 40, despite the size and power gap being far larger between those two rounds? The other thing that could make the 30 SC fail is how much people actually care about the capacity advantage. Sure 19+1 is unbelievably good, but then again 15+1 is still nothing to scoff at, and would likely be adequate for 99% of defensive scenarios. So even if you consider the 30 SC superior to 9mm, the question becomes, ‘is it a big enough difference to warrant the potentially expensive and painful switch away from 9mm’? There’s a reason that 327 federal mag never gained much traction. It might very well be the best snub nose revolver round that exists, but is it a big enough difference to make most people move away from their 38 and 357 revolvers? Absolutely not. Most people will stick with what they’ve already got. For this reason alone, I would be surprised if the 30 SC ever becomes popular, but I really hope that I end up being surprised.
Very good points – thanks for sharing all of this!
It invites a great point: on paper, a new cartridge may make all the sense in the world and even perhaps what we should have had all along. However, in the reality of the marketplace and already available firearms and ammo, and an ammo shortage, it is not necessarily going to survive as a cartridge.
I appreciate your efforts and commentary! Thank you. This thing will probably score big points with the crowd that thinks a 2.5 lb single stack 9mm is a solid choice nowadays, as well as the flip phone types who think a EZ in the nightstand after 70 plus years of never training makes them safe. I’m looking forward to the review for the first .380 conversion kit and when it will take Glock mags.
You forgot all the super-precious small pistol primers that are now being used for a cartridge that almost nobody is currently shopping for while those of us who reload can’t even get a whiff of a box of 100 small pistol primers.
Federal should have teamed up on Smith & Wesson to make a 30 Super Carry version of the CSX. Two bad ideas rolled into one.
I agree 100% with your assessment.
I’m an old guy and grew up shooting and loving the 1911 & 45 long colt. I now have several 9’s and . 380’s , can’t say I love them but they are great. Here 9mm has doubled in price and is still hard to find at times. I definitely don’t need to be searching high and for this new round and paying insane prices for it.I guess they just needs something new for Shoot show..
You made some good points but you lost credibility with the .22 Magnum comparison. I know you were reaching to make a point but it was an unnecessary and misleading exaggeration as .22 Magnum has nowhere near those energy levels when fired out of short pistol barrels. I’m in no way defending this new cartridge but if you want to be taken seriously at least be factual.
Yeah, I might have gone too far there. I was trying to use an absurd example to make a point. Too absurd?
I can see its diminutive size could provide smaller carry guns than compact 9s, narrower than 380s, with considerably more power than a 32 ACP. As far as popularity, 32s and 22s carried the day in times past, probably because ordinary folks are more interested in defensive retreat and not so much in killing their fellow human beings. And in reloading, it would take less powder and bullets would maybe cost less. So in the long run, popularity of the 30 SC may surprise you.
Performances and dimension wise, is a repurposed 8mm Roth-Steyr. For some reason “The most revolutionary advancement in self-defense history” had not been understood 117 years ago.
If the public wants something between .380 ACP and a 9mm, there still is the 9mm Makarov. It doesn’t seem to me there are long queues of people wanting to buy pistols in 9mm Makarov.
I’ve been around firearms for almost sixty five years and have seen a lot of “new” cartridges come and go. Depending on what you’re trying to do, the old favorites will continue to rule until or unless they exceed expectations of present day calibers. For me my vote goes to .22, .357 magnum, .40 caliber and .45 ACP. Personally carry S&W Shield .40 cal or Glock 23 .40 cal. Also have a snub nose .357 magnum if the .40 doesn’t get the job done and they get real close! I also prefer the 30-06 but the .308 will work ok. For close in work 5.56mm gets it done also. Good article, agree there really isn’t any need for this “new” cartridge.
In Massachusetts, and maybe other States, magazine capacity is limited to 10. So, I can’t see this caliber being very attractive to anyone in Massachusetts. Seems a little foolish to buy a firearm whose main attraction is magazine capacity when you’d have to buy 10 round limited mags to carry it. Just saying.
The capacity of the SW shield ez is 10 rounds
Mike, I’m glad that despite your threat to leave (on your comment below) you decided to stay around and join the discussion!
Perhaps you’re missing Alan’s point? He agrees that the capacity is 10 rounds. He’s wondering why it’s a good idea to switch to a caliber who’s main benefit is increased capacity if the capacity can’t be increased.
Thanks for the analysis, without the hype.
The only question will be if this cartridge goes the way of the 7.92×24, 41 AE or the 357 sig. Interesting idea; but not as practical.
Police departments were falling over them selves to acquire the 357 sig a few years back, but the reality of how unpleasant it was to shoot, limited it’s use.
While a lot has been said about lack of recoil in this new round; the physics of 50,000 psi chamber pressures are unforgiving, and will show in pistols with high round counts.
John Moses Browning designed the 45 at lower pressure, which he bumped up with the 380; but the 30 super carry is at the ragged edge of what a small pistol can contain.
Herr Luger really found the sweet spot in cartridge design, enough power to get the job done; without endangering the guys next to you at the range.
The reality that 22s kill more folks in this country than any other caliber, really demonstrates the importance of shot placement.
Practice with your 9mm until your skills are up to the task at hand, instead of chasing the next new thing.
Think 7.5 Bron, or 7.92×24, or the 5.7x 28 as interesting experiments; but realize these are not as practical as the 9mm for everyday use.
Holy I found an excellent site. I just saw the Federal AD in a new gun rag for this, and started looking it up. Killed my first deer at 8 ever since I have deeply into bullet performance, reloading, competing, and firearms. Retiring in a month after 33yrs LE. Firearms Instructor, SWAT Team, Sniper (new PC Term Marksman) anything with firearms. I carried a 32 Seecamp as back up, and then to a 380 Taurus TCP. I currently always have the 380 TCP or a Ruger LCP in my pocket loaded with Underwood 90gr +P Ext. Pen.. I saw the add and was interested maybe a new micro pocket pistol closer to 9mm and hotter than 32ACP was out. Then I saw their claimed ballistics and immediately thought this is total BS advertising. Clearly they were comparing Apples to Passion Fruit. I wanted more info….and what do you know Ryan pointed out 50,000 PSI. WTH….well no poo poo how they were getting their numbers. Ryan pointed it out and he matched my thoughts….this is just to sell more stuff to the unknowing. Heck load up a 9mm anything to 50K then add the results to their AD. I hope they sell a billion rounds and sell 10 billion new guns because of it…AFTER THEY CATCH UP WITH THE LACK OF 50 OTHER CARTRIDGES THE PUBLIC WANTS AND NEEDS.
Yeah, I get it. It’s a modern cross between a 32WSL and a 30 Carbine Kurtz (sorta). Not sure how it will fare given the 357 Sig didn’t rocket to the moon with more power and less capacity and this is the exact opposite. Time will tell but I will say I’m not worried about the pressure since the forces (pressure * area) work out to be within about 1% of a 9 mm +P so it’s unlikely to induce a lot more stress than a 9. Pity it wasn’t around in the vz. 61 days, it would have been perfect.
these are the same folks that brought you the 327 Federal and the 338 Federal, two of the most popular cartridges in the world. the 327 Federal supplants all other handgun rounds and the 338 federal beats all other rifle rounds…….
Not sure why Federal (Vista Outdoors) thought they needed to do this. they have a monopoly and are raking in record profits already. They have little competition. why spend the NRE dollars unnecessarily?
on the other hand, only hits count, so in the big scheme of things I doubt it will matter much.
Now if you’re only interested in paper punching, it might be a very good new cartridge if you hand load it down to, say, 20K PSI and put it in a match grade pistol. Essentially the 32 S&W Long without a rim. and talk to some of the match pistol makers to give you a barrel and magazine that you could use this in??? Hammerli, Walther GSP, etc.
Hahahahahaha. Oh my, how droll. I wonder if he’s aware how many times, matter of fact, almost every time he draws a comparison, we could insert “9mm” where he says 30sc and insert “40 s&w” where he says 9mm.
Except, as usual for 9mm apologists, he misunderstands the difference between fatal wounding and lethality.
Sure, yes, he has excellent credentials. However, his experience comes from a world where handguns are either a secondary or tertiary weapon.
In a personal use of a handgun as a self-defense weapon, as in most civilian and law enforcement, lethality is required…not wounds that the subject may die from if left untreated. To a self-defense or LEO user, 9 is not perferable.
Many agencies got on the 9 bandwagon thinking they could save ammunition money, now many have discovered that they aren’t and many are finding out good cops are unhappy with it.
So, no sympathy for you. Made your bed, go sleep in it.
I don’t know… sounds anecdotal. I agree 100% that 40 is has a higher lethality than 9, though not by a wide margin; 2.36 rounds to incapacitate vs 2.45 rounds to incapacitate, according to an Ohio police study.
I would bet for every 1 officer that prefers 40, you could find AT LEAST 1 officer that prefers 9; as long as we’re throwing out anecdotes
Typically I would call something a review if I had some experience with it. In this case, if I’d shot at least a couple of boxes of it, somehow I missed what your personal experience was using the round?
While I don’t disagree that its a cartridge that seems to be solving a problem that just doesn’t exist. I’m also smart enough to see marketing speak as marketing speak, but I can appreciate your desire to enlighten people you think are either not as smart as you, or as experienced as you.
That said, sure doesn’t seem like any review that I’ve ever seen before. More like your personal diatribe on it, based on a whole bunch of other things. Based on this, I’d definitely hard pass anyone, especially a new shooter take any advice from this website though. Sure hope the rest of your content and reviews is based on, you know, actual experience, which in this case, you presented a review, with absolutely zero experience. Can agree with your conclusion, but the way you got there? Yeah…not so good.
I suspect I am coming late to the discussion, however, after reading the article and ALL the comments (as of 1/19/2022), I believe the strongest strength of this new cartridge is the fact that it is not a military or police centric cartridge. It has been, ostensibly, created for self-defense purposes. All the other considerations will be sussed out by real people using this cartridge and the companies supporting it. It may develop a life of its own if enough newbies buy into it because it is fresh(?) and new(?).
I ask would this work in an AR style platform as a carbine? A lever action? The Ruger mini- series?
I currently am working on getting a carbine for every caliber of handgun I have. This article reminds me that I need a rifle companion for my Charter Arms Patriot .327.
I would say you are mostly missing the point. A lot of the marks against the 30 SC are arbitrary. Energy, the amount of expansion, the chamber pressure are pointless so long as there is a firearm that safely chambers it and penetration with reliable expansion are achieved. The expansion compared to 9mm abd 380 HST is acceptable. Keep in mind, the case length is 21mm thats what truly matters the relative case capacity is going to offer more in the smaller, higher sectional density of a 100-115 grain .312 projectile. What you will see is better performance out of shorter barrels much like the 327 fed mag.
Federal knows what they are doing, they design pistol ammo effectively and likely wouldn’t introduce a new round half heartedly.
When comparing this new round, you should consider it’s purpose. It’s not a 9mm replacement, it is a stopgap between 9mm and .380. There has been a large market for sub compact 9mm carry pistols, specifically the ones that offer a higher capacity. The 30 SC does this with the potential of even more ammo or smaller platforms.
But people should realize that this indeed not a good option for first tine shooters. However with similar recoil to 9mm one could easily practice with 9mm to good effect.
Some of us can’t use 9mm. It kicks too hard. Me, I’d like to try this round. I can use .380. I can use .45, but .45’s are large. Yes, they kick. But the 9mm snaps in my small hands in a way that I can’t shoot it well. This gun is being built to compete with the .380, not the 9mm.
The .380 is an accurate, effective cartridge you guys don’t like and don’t appreciate. What’s wrong with your opinion? The .380 does the job, regularly, reliably, and with a PROVEN TRACK RECORD. Really.
What if this cartridge is a genuine intermediate round that does the job? It isn’t there to do less than 9mm while promising more. It’s going to to less than 9mm, we know that. it isn’t as fat, and it isn’t as fast. But you’re looking at it from the perspective of already carrying your 9mm everywhere you go. That isn’t an option for me, I can’t shoot the 9 well. I can shoot the .380 fabulously. THIS GIVES ALMOST 9mm performance for those of us who want a smaller gun. We’re getting our shorter, smaller guns first in guns that are like .380s like the .380 EZ. We already have cartridges with these pressures. If the firearm can handle them (and these firearms will) they achieve what firearms designers were looking for when they made the .30 Luger and the .30 Tokarev: a high-speed effective .30 pistol. If it works out, they’ll have a .30 caliber carry gun. Like, .32 caliber, BUT: an effective .32, because the case is a whole lot longer and the cartridge hotter. But, in a high capacity carry pistol on the small end of the scale. Once you are proven to be badly wrong, you’re going to feel very silly because you didn’t have the imagination to understand this permits 9mm performance in YOUR hands to people with a woman’s hands. (Or my hands: I think it’s hand size that means I am not an effective shooter with a 9.) You’re fine with your nine. We need something for US to equal what you can already do.
This round is exactly the same length as 9mm (therefore won’t fit in 380-sized guns) and it effectively kicks the same as 9mm.
It is very interesting that this round came out. I was a late adopter of the 327 Federal Magnum which is a round I adore. Good ballistics and power but less recoil than a 357 Magnum. Is it a full replacement for a 357? No, but it will fill most of the roles of a 357 and the role I need very well. So this 30 Super Carry looks like a 327 Fed Mag (or 32 H&R Mag) for semi-auto handguns. Is that a bad thing? No. Is it going to work? I will say no. As good as the 327 Fed Mag cartridge is (and it is VERY good), it still hasn’t made much of an inroad against the 357 Magnum because of how well established the 357 is and the perception that it can do more. All of that is true even if I know very few people that would be willing to shoot an entire box or two of 357 in a range session which is easy with the 327. So will people look at the merits of the 30 Super Carry or will they see it as a lesser cartridge to the 9×19? I am betting it will be the same as the revolver cartridges I mentioned and that means that 30 Super Carry probably will never be more than a niche round like its revolver brethren.
I just heard about this caliber yesterday so decided to do a little research. Before I did, however, I did my own mental exercise of the pros and cons of this new caliber. I quickly concluded it was a solution looking for a problem based on the ballistics and ammo availability comparing to 9mm. An excellent article that clearly explains the pros and cons. In a life or death situation it seems clear to me which round I’d like to have to defend myself against a hostile threat.
I must agree with you for the most part. This cartridge will probably be useful in the micro/ mouse class however.
But main defense? Only if I’m clad in a speedo 😁
Interesting article…and also interesting comments. The 30 SC may very well fail…or not. One of the comments stood out to me: that if the 30 SC was actually closer to the stats of midpoint between 380 and 9mm it would fill the niche better. I guess I kinda suspect that it will drift towards that with different loadings. But the main thoughts I’d offer are that I’m hoping for noticeably less recoil than 9mm-we’ve seen conflicting ideas about that. On one hand, the pressures are high-on the other the reviewers are claiming less recoil. I guess we will see as it hits the market. Also, the narrower diameter offers a lot more option for capacity/magazine profile and grip sizing. As someone who owns and carries a combination of small frame mouse gun 380’s (I’ve had several) and also some larger 9mm ones as well I’ll offer that ‘shootability’ is an intangible and very individual combination of frame and grip size/length/width, ability to get the ‘3rd finger’ on the grip vs grip length for concealeability as well as recoil character and overall ‘feel’. For me, I alternate between IWB and pocket carry (different situations). I’m preferentially an IWB compact 1911 (9mm) guy but I do like the P238 (I have a Legion that is pretty damn nice) and recently, a Ruger LCP Max for packet carry and/or deeper conceal IWB. No one gun fits everything-here in Alaska you want more punch and penetration than 380-more layers of clothes for more of the year. That, and the average Alaskan male runs to the beefier side ;). It’s just that lifestyle doesn’t let one carry a larger concealed handgun IWB all the time.
So, all discussion on marketing, ballistics, performance and ‘need’ being valid and important, I’ll be watching performance of course-but more so noise, recoil, performance in shorter barrels-and also what the smaller diameter opportunities play out in terms of rethinking some of the single stack and double stack favorites out there-it might hit a good spot in the burgeoning concealed carry market in terms of the two things that matter to a lot of people who carry-ergonomics and shootability
I leave with a last thought-the first priority is hitting then target-as many times and as fast as you are able. In my 35 year career as a street paramedic I’ve seen no small amount of GSW’s-in many calibers. Lots of them small. Generally, the ones with more holes in them fare much worse. Bigger caliber better? Sure, I agree.
I’m going to be optimistic and watch what plays out-seeing Nighthawk jump in and produce a model in 30 SC for the testing and rollout was certainly enough to catch my attention. I’ll be watching for more info and reviews on head-to-heads with the S&W Shield Max and Shield EZ in 30 SC vs the 9mm originals. The same day I saw the 30 SC announcement I ordered a new S&W CSX (obviously in 9mm-no 30 SC model announced yet, if at all). It seems a good choice for carry for a 1911 guy-got it, haven’t shot it yet. Like the feel, fit and quality. If I like it as much as I think I will, I’ll be watching to see what they do if and when they do a version in 30 SC-just because I’ll be curious…
The real reason you shouldn’t buy it is that ammo’s gonna be unobtainium or near so at some point like the WSSMs if it flops. Odds are it will. It’s got no parent case so you’re at the mercy of the ammo companies to produce it at all. It won’t be so bad if you have a gun that’s a barrel and a mag away from shooting 9mm.
In terms of this round though, high pressure is not at face value a reason to discount it. If it’s being shot from a firearm which would normally use a 9mm barrel, don’t forget that you’re effectively reducing the chamber by what will likely amount to ~20 thousandths per side. That’s a not insignificant amount of material all things considered. That is before you even consider that most 9mm handguns would likely be engineered with 2 or even 3X the tolerances. It also ignores that no one has heard of 327 Federal revolvers blowing up in droves, and unlike this round there’s actually case capacity to significantly hot rod it.
In terms of “weaker centerfire cartridges” that are common there’s always 25 and 32 auto. They’re not rare by any stretch although meant for a different size gun than this will be introduced for. I think that if this finds a niche it would likely be usurping those rounds honestly. Something like a modified Keltec P32 or a Seecamp.
I am actively dumber after reading this. Did you seriously bring up the KelTec PMR-30 as a comparision, and then quote .22 Magnum muzzle energy out of a 24″ barrel as some sort of slam dunk? Seriously? And if you’re really going to try to make the capacity argument there, the PMR-30 is a full frame gun, which means it should be compared to a full frame gun. in .30 SC, that would be similar in capacity to an FN FiveseveN, around 19 or 20 rounds in a mag.
I see absolutely zero reason to believe that this chamber pressure number is even legitimate either.
And screaming about a lack of availability of ammo and guns chambered in it when it isn’t even officially OUT yet is just absurd. Rome wasn’t built in a day. You need to let things actually HAPPEN before there can be any market support.
If reading my opinion of a new cartridge makes you dumber, I strongly suggest that you immediately cease reading my articles – you don’t appear to have much intelligence left to spare.
They are going the wrong way with new cartridges, in my opinion of course. 50,000 psi chamber pressure is insane. One round of that fired indoors could make you deaf for the rest of your life. That is close to 223 pressure, and will come from probably a 3-4” barrel.
Please forgive the tone of my comments, I have recently been catching up on my reading and have become increasingly irritated at nonsense spewing forth from gunwriters onto the pages of articles and blogs. It seems that “political correctness” has infected that media to the extent that relevant facts must be omitted in order to promote the current popularity of certain weapons and cartridges. The question of effectiveness in regard to the new 30SC cartridge will only be answered by time and real world experience. While many are anxious to compare velocity and energy figures, they do not tell the whole story. The sectional density of the .312″ 115gr projectile is equal to that of the .355″ 147gr bullet but at greater advertised velocity, therefore it has the potential to penetrate better. The FBI maintains that penetration is everything with defensive handgun cartridges. Do I agree?…. mostly. Does the new round has what it takes to be a viable defensive option?…. maybe. Is it the greatest thing since buttered bread?…, definitely not. Do we need something better than the 9×19 Parabellum?…. absolutely. Therein lies the problem. We already have a proven handgun cartridge that far exceeds the 9mm’s performance, the .357 Magnum 125gr JHP. So why does this excellent choice get so little recognition? First: this for the most part a revolver cartridge and we have been told for years now that the revolver is outdated and impractical. Second: the 357 Magnum is not and easy round to master, requiring heavier and larger handguns to take full advantage of it’s potential. Third: revolvers do not meet today’s alleged need for “high capacity”. So now we must consider whether we need to carry several times more ammo on board than we are likely to need in a defensive encounter and what tradeoffs are we willing to make toward that end? The autoloader is a wonderful tool, but not without its limitations. Like any mechanical device, the more complicated the machine, the more likely to have malfunctions. All semi-autos are ammunition sensitive, that which will not feed will not function. This of little concern with the revolver. That means the revolver has the potential to launch better projectiles in terms of shape, effectiveness, and variety. The high capacity auto pistol also tends to give the shooter a false sense of security under pressure, one tends assume that more available ammunition will compensate for poor marksmanship, “spray and pray” is irresponsible, potentially dangerous to unintended targets, wastes ammo, and will not save you when the chips are down. Aim small, miss small. Learn to shoot whatever you may end up carrying. It it true that target practice will not prepare you to face an armed adversary, but the ability to shoot tiny groups consistently will prove confidence which is an imperative element of mind set. Minute of paper plate most likely will not do. Become proficient with your sidearm or find something you can handle better. Don’t believe everything you read or hear. Select the best tool for the job even if it means less felt recoil become a better shot. Misses do not count and the ability to miss faster is of no value.
Federal’s track record on marketing new cartridges, short as it is, hasn’t been impressive. Even if 30 Super Carry has genuine merits, I wonder how well it will fare in the marketplace. Still haven’t seen a .327 Federal handgun at the range.
And then there’s my favorite rifle cartridge of all time – the .338 Federal. Certainly not an “innovation” as it is just a .308 necked up, but as a black bear hunter, it fills a niche like no other. Alas, I’m am being stung by the dearth of ammo options (even in good times) and that nobody makes hunting rifles chambered in it anymore. Only 15 years after introduction, .338 Federal is on life support. .327 Federal seems to be dying even faster, and it too fills a niche for some.
If Federal couldn’t keep .327 and .338 Federal alive, both of which in my view have more value to consumers than 30 Super Carry, I have doubts about the future of 30 Super Carry.
Contrast this to Hornady’s downright obnoxious (but effective) marketing of the 6.5 Creedmoor.
I agree that the .338 Federal fills a niche.
Don’t forget about the .224 Valkyrie. 🙂
How can anyone take the 30 Super Carry seriously with the main selling point being “It’ll fit 2 more rounds in the same magazine”? The chamber pressure of 50k psi is just insane and effectively ensures recoil will be similar to the 9mm(+P). The whole point of the .380 APC is that it allows for more compact frames and less recoil than the 9mm Parabellum. People who prefer the .380 APC will not welcome the harsher recoil and report. People who prefer the 9mm Parabellum will have to turn off part of their brains to accept that 2 additional rounds in the same frame are worth less expansion, energy and availability. Literally a pointless offering from Federal. Additionally, introducing another cartridge when Federal is failing to meet demand for established cartridges is insulting to the consumer and bad for business. perhaps, Federal simply seeks to create buzz (of any kind) and cash in on the “early adopters” (i.e., more money than sense) crowd for a few years before they effectively abandon this hot new round?
This is not a revolutionary cartridge. For me, a revolutionary cartridge is something like the Inceptor ARX in 380 ACP that meets the FBI penetration standard. My Ruger LCP Max holds 12+1 of those. The increased capacity over 9mm is nice if you are carrying a single stack gun like the S&W M&P Shield 9. However, my Taurus GX4 holds 13+1, my Canik TP9 Elite SC holds 15+1 as does my Glock 43xMOS when using a Shield Arms S-15. Additionally, I can pocket 20 round magazines for the Canik and the Glock.
I went on ammoseek.com and searched for 30 Super Carry and got zero hits. IMO 30 SC is answering a question that nobody is asking.
I am fairly new to this but I dont see the problem. So they have come up with a new round. I wish I had a firearm in every caliber size. I personally carry a 40. But I own guns in many shapes and sizes. I have a 224 Valkyrie rifle for long range shooting, love it. And, it pleases me that not the whole world has one. Maybe this new round does not “fix” anything, but actually I think with the ammo technologies out there we can have what we need in many forms, not just the 9mm, and yes I have one. All the comments just seemed to be so negative.
I’ve been in law enforcement for almost 30 years. I started with a .357 MAG, then a 9mm, a .45, and now a .40. I’ve carried backups in .25, 380, .38+P and .32. I currently carry a Walther PPS .40 and a Glock 23 depending on the duty assignment. I’m slowly drifting back to the 9mm having just purchased a Springfield Hellcat. Why would you want to put your money into a gun and round that shows little advantage over the .380 and the 9mm. I predict you would have an orphaned gun in a few years much like the FN 57. Great gun but good luck finding the expensive ammo.
I am not opposed to the concept here, but that PSI certainly has me concerned. I think that there is definitely a place for a round between .380 and 9mm in power with a little extra capacity, but the combination of that pressure and the pretty absurdly over-hyped marketing campaign has definitely turned me off from this.
I too am a fan of the 327, so I hope that isn’t a strike against me, LOL. I think there is a spot in the market for this cartridge and I wish it success (at least it would open up more bullet choices for the other 32s). I do think it is a considerably better choice than the 380, which I know you said has better expansion – except that in many of the guns the 380 is chambered for, it can’t pick up the velocity needed to expand anyway. 30 Super looks like it is up to that task, however it is likely to be at cost of significantly more recoil.
As for not being legal for some competitive shooting leagues, as a guy who works in a gun shop I can say I’ve officially been hit with that question/concern all of ZERO times. I don’t believe it is an issue for 99% of the firearms market. 380 sucks and the 32 ACP needed to be brought “up to code”, I think the 30 Super Carry gets it done!
So as a reloader of only 3 yrs. I immediately found a way to make this cartridge better. More on that later. Now I am not a wildcatter. I’m strictly by the books. But you introduced a pistol cartridge that is only 5,000 psi below a 223 pressure you better show some extreme performance gains. But 50,000 psi?????
What the hell. Not even 44 mag or 41 mag reach that kind of pressure. The only one I’m aware of is 460 s&w and 454 casull which reaches 65,000 psi but only in a specifically built strong frame revolver.
Then you add less expansion less foot pounds of energy less velocity oh but you can carry two more rounds. This is a lawsuit ready to happen.
But let me explain why it is a lawsuit ready to happen. When you have a small cartridge with high chamber pressures like 50,000 psi. And it’s marketed towards compact carry small pistols You are going to hear of more guns blowing up in peoples hands. Because of cheap gun manufacturers want to make money off of the poor people like me. That’s why I think it’s a lawsuit in waiting.
So how do I think it could be made better?
Well if your going to go with a high pressure pistol caliber then bottle neck the case. Typically a bottle necked case leads towards more pressure and more
pressure leads towards more velocity more velocity equals more energy on impact.
(UNLESS YOU LOOK AT THE 30sc)
But wait there’s more ( for only 5 easy payments of $19.95) sorry couldn’t help myself.
So neck down the case to where it can accept a .308 diameter bullet. Now you have 80g 85gr 90gr 95,100,110 grain options.
You already have extremely high pressures why the hell not.
So with higher pressures in small guns equals higher dollar guns to be built to withstand high pressures, with a higher dollar cartridge that does less. But carry’s two more rounds.
So let’s see here. Hrmmm the pistol is going to cost more the ammo is going to cost more. It’s going to be less effective at saving my life than a 9mm with the same recoil. Oh yeah I almost forgot. It could blow up in my hands and potentially kill me. Or get me killed in a life or death situation.
I could be wrong I am only human. I don’t think I am. But hey it happens.
Under pro/con you list as a con that the 30 SC expands less than 380 ACP, but this is false because the 380 you’re comparing it to under-penetrates badly. A true comparison would be against a 380 load that penetrates a similar amount and in that case the 30 SC would be clearly superior.
A pro is that a double stack 30 SC magazine can be slimmer than a 9 or 40 magazine making it easier to carry.
A con is that, at least in initial offerings, it is not available in subsonic loading and won’t suppress well.
Another pro is that the 30 SC uses less raw materials and powder leaving more available for those that still want other calibers. When you combine that with the higher price it means even more raw materials available.
The problem I see with the cartridge is that it is too powerful. If it was a clear step down from 9mm then it could find a niche, but it is close enough that it is a direct competitor instead.
To be fair, it is the 380 that Federal themselves compared it to in their graphic.
Finally! The 7mm Nambu Magnum we’ve been waiting for!
So it’s a reintroduction of the 30 luger ? Umm
Pass.
Ryan, I think your comments are on point and the criticism (of federal) is fair and deserved. Perhaps in normal times, this would be less of an issue because we are all special and want to find our niche. But this is 2022, we are in the third year of a severe ammo shortage and Federal is raising prices across the board, obscenely so in some cases. It irks me that if Federal could find the R&D funds for this pet project then perhaps they didn’t need to double the cost of some ammo lines – ahem 45-70 that has been on the market for 150 years. The 30 carry reminds me of my days in the Army when some new officer would find a way to invent a new acronym for an old program to generate another OER bullet. This is a product arriving at a bad time and looking for a reason to justify itself. I for one will be sticking with the tried and true 9mm that has served us well for so many years. Heck for $20 I can add a mag extender for my Glock and be up 3 rounds, or if I don’t want recoil I can find a light load in my books while suffering none of the compromises. Any of the supposed merits of the 30 carry could be achieved in 9mm with far less money than a new gun and without making life more difficult.
Yeah I mean why would you want more capacity at the expense of caliber? Especially when youre thinking of leaving such a tried and true, long standing round. I mean there have been advancements in ballistics to make up for some of the difference of caliber, but not enough to justify such a drastic difference. Yeap, I think I’ll be sticking with 45acp over 9mm.
Please let us know how you like your 30 Super Carry when you get one.
I see the 30 super carry as being like a magician showing something flashy to distract the audience from the real action taking place (or in this situation NOT taking place) on the other side of the stage. They are basically flashing the 30 Super Carry as a distraction from the empty shelves where you used to find commonly produced rounds, rounds that have all but disappeared.
I see this as both bad timing and / or dishonesty but indisputably it is poor business practices on display. You don’t buy a new car, while your house is facing foreclosure.
Everything you said about this cartridge could be said about the .40sw and 9mm.. honestly a new rifle cartridge comes out with modest except ace every other year.. I don’t understand why the pistol caliber community is sooo die hard on 9mm like I like a few different flavors. I think 45 gap was a great idea especially for cc… I think this is to I would love to see glock chamber for it in their slimline series and at least one full size..
Right on! Vista has a virtual monopoly on domestic ammunition production, and they are acting like it. They are no a friend of the gun owner or sportsman.
Anti-trust anyone?
Here we go again! Starting with the 327 Federal Magnum which was taunted as the greatest innovation for revolvers. Miracle ballistic performance with larger capacity in the same size revolver.
Now 30 Super Carry, change the advertisement from revolver to semi automatic and wipe the dust off.
From the video shown in the advertisements the recall impulse is very similar to 9 mm. So it will not help those who are recoil sensitive.
The projectiles are smaller which will increase the necessity for a well-placed shot to make sure that it is effective. Judging by the numbers in the advertisement the velocity is not sufficient to transfer enough energy to be certain of a single shot stop.
Add to those things the fact that these are designed to come out of short barreled pistols compact and smaller and you will that the deficiencies are compounded.
Just can’t see any true upside to the 30 Super Carry
I think the big difference in the value of the 327 Federal Magnum is it let revolvers gain an extra round or two over the 38 Special in the same form factor. 7 shots over 5 or 6 is a big difference. With all of the double stack sub compact 9s, do I really want to go to a difference platform for what I can gain with an extended mag? Heck, the greatest innovation right now is if the Shield Arms S-15 that takes a G43X or a G48 and increases capacity by 50% with a flush fit mag.
New and improved!!! Yawn…Ok, I liked the idea of the 327 in short barreled light revolvers. Ballistics of everything change with short barrels and the data on the 327 in a compact carry revolver are pretty good so I ran out and bought a couple. I also liked the idea of multiple 32 cartridges could be used. So, is this a 327 in an auto loader configuration, a duplicate of the ‘antique’ 7.62 x 25 or a competitor for the 357 Sig? Aside from the pressures, which to my pointy head are a bit scary. I’m thinking it will end up on the shelf with the 45 GAP but that’s only my opinion. Oh, yeah, I’ve been shooting for 62 years and have watched a bunch of New & Improved stuff wain.
Heck – a “certain” single shot stop is not something that one can depend upon from any pistol! A 12 ga. perhaps. As far as the .327 Federal goes – the main reason I thought it was interesting is that five different cartridges (that I know of) can safely be fired from a firearm chambered for it. That is, it would be possible if you could find/afford any of the five!
Considering carry options, for many years I carried a .45. I just recently retired my Sig 220 which I carried for 30 years. (I had another 220 prior to that one) and replaced it with a 365xl. I like the 365, nice and light, easy to carry, but I just don’t have the level of confidence in it that I have in the .45 (I think that comes from having to use a .45 in lethal encounters – I KNOW it works!) I don’t think I will be ready any time soon to go to an even less powerful round for carry. Now, before I get judged as being an old codger who doesn’t like 9mm, let me point out two things. One – I have a 9mm in my holster right now. Two – when I was doing firearms training, I made it a point to point out that that actual one shot stopping percentages were within a few percentage points of each other between 9, .40 and .45. 357 magnum was at the top of the list tho. I also pointed out that (according to current statistics of the time) one of the largest police departments in the nation had a hit percentage in gunfights of 17%. Dismal. My training was focused on getting the students to be accurate and accurate under stress. “You can’t miss fast enough to be effective”. I forget who said that, but “stopping power” is achieved through proper shot placement!
Maybe this is all part of their plan to keep ammo prices high and production low?
ZeroHedge.com says that they might be keeping production low on purpose.
“Vista has set up two pricing programs to ensure high prices and stability. The first is a subscription service for ammunition, which gives them a steady flow of ammunition demand and lets them plan production more easily. The second is, well, an informal form of price-fixing, or output reduction. They aren’t totally explicit about it, but they use code words to make the point. Here’s Metz explaining that they collude with their competition to keep capacity lower than it should be.
“Now with ammunition being the largest part of our business. I mean, clearly, buying a Remington, we’ve created what we feel like is an even more disciplined industry now as we go forward. We’ve got, I think, like competitors in the sense that they watch growth, they watch their margin profiles. And we feel like we’ve got a disciplined industry.”
And I’ve mentioned previously that we studied, as best we can…industry capacity and making sure that we’re not only managing our capacity, but very mindful of what’s being brought into the industry, so we don’t get over our skis, if you will.
In other words, Vista executives are planning to ensure that prices won’t come down. They have expanded some capacity on the margins, but because there are only two real firms now, they can easily pull that extra production offline if necessary.”
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/what-great-ammunition-shortage-says-about-inflation
I read two different articles on Zerohedge where claims were made that Vista was trying to control supply. Both of those claims were absolutely outrageous. I make pistol ammo for one of the Vista brands and can tell you we make every possible round that we can push out the door. Prices may have come down in the last several months, demand is lower but still high and our brand is trying to grab as much of the market share as possible. We ran almost full capacity this Labor Day holiday. Excuse me if I get kind of angry when I read this crap about limiting supply.
As for the 30SC? Since I have access to the Gold Dot, I’m going to try one. Even though I think the snark may have made a couple of decent points. 😀 Thanks for the article!
Finally, an honest and no BS review! The usual shills will be out in force hawking the .30 Super Carry, something that no asked for and no one wants.
Except maybe Vista, who while stiffing the LGS by selling its ammo direct to consumers and the big box outdoor stores, can find a another way to keep availability scarce and prices high on the ammunition that the consumer DOES want – 9mm, .39 Special, .357 Magnum, etc.
I’m a fan of the .32 calibre, but realistically this round is going nowhere. The marketing claims are a compendium of crapola – a 100 grain .32 bullet at 1250 fps is going to recoil like a 115 grain 9mm bullet at 1150 fps. And frankly, the larger heavier 9mm is more effective.
A 50,000 psi cartridge is not going to work with any degree of durability or reliability in the “little micro carry pistols” the shills are talking about, regurgitating the industry talking points they were given. It’s not fitting into .380 size guns because it’s the length of a 9mm.
I’m all for choice and while I might like this calibre for what it is, the breathless hyperbole being written on it is nothing more than pablum for the large and clueless group of new gun owners.
Federal (Vista) has been completely tone-deaf since the ammunition shortage started. From whining about excess capacity they had pre-shortage, to bragging about their sponsored shooters winning with the piles of free ammo they are provided (while the average competitor drastically cuts back), to introducing new hunting rounds with “ground-breaking technology” (while the hunters with traditional calibres and leverguns can’t find anything), to announcing that they will no longer be accepting orders for primers (convenient since they aren’t selling any), to this .30 Super Carry white elephant – they are not impressing anyone.
Every day, they are less of an ammunition company, and more like a company that happens to make ammunition. Sadly, true of most of the gun industry.
Wave, you’ve hit it on the head. I spoke with an ammo remanufacturer a few days ago who told me he has 7000 small pistol primers left, then he’s out of business. He can’t find anyone who will accept an order for less than a billion primers. The establishment is getting rid of the little guys. If that feels like the Covid lockdowns, there’s probably a reason. We need anti-trust, but won’t be getting that through a dysfunctional DOJ.
Yes, I have an issue with this cartridge, besides it’s rather high pressure. My issue is, there is no “gap” to bridge. It’s just a ploy (think of the timing here…) Honestly, I believe this is an attempt to “civillianize” a close to 9mm cartridge, so when big brother shuts down the ability for us civillians to use that evil “millitary cartridge”, there will be something on the market. Also, many previously anti gunner types are dipping their toe into self defense carry. “30 Super Carry” sounds much cooler, and way less OG/gun nut, than 9mm…
Just my conspiracy theory…..
Federal has taken the 7.65×21 Mannlicher case from 117 years ago and loaded it to ridiculous pressure levels. Not exactly groundbreaking.
Hello Ryan, I’ve read the orange book and enjoy the cut of your jib. Suspicious of the Federal numbers without knowing the barrel length, max PSI and thickness of the brass. If the 50k claim is true, I will likely be avoiding this cartridge but not snorting when people talk about wanting a conversion for their existing gun. The biggest advantage I see is there will be a bigger bullet selection to wildcat into a 10mm case.
Anyways, I have a question unrelated to the topic at hand that I was hoping to get your thoughts on. That is, what do you think of the effectiveness of setting up a rifle sighting system with a powered scope and a red dot offset so both are visible from the shooter’s perspective when cheeked and with both eyes open? I’ve done a little experimentation and it seems to work best with the red dot set on non-dominate eye side and slightly higher than the scope. Dot zeroed to 50. The plan is to be able to transition from short range to long range and back without moving the head at all. Do you have any input on working with sighting two optics at once in this manner?
Thanks for bein’ you, definitely one of the most authentic and pragmatic of peoples in the industry and culture. Your advice is thoughtful and I agree with a great deal that you put forth. Cheers!
Re Jim’s video: I would be very interested in hearing how the civilian’s need to stop a an adversarial human at short range differs from a soldier or police officer’s need to stop an adversarial human at short range, somehow requiring a completely different cartridge to accomplish the task.
We’ve greatly evolved technologically from the days of “flintlock once / resort to sword”. Eight rounds of .45 is clearly better than cold steel. According to current conventional wisdom, 10-15 rounds of 9mm is better than that. Obviously, 12-to-infinity rounds of .30SC are even better, RIGHT???
In that context, I think the marketing for this new round is trying WAY too hard to gild lilies. The 9mm made its name on more bullets and less recoil. This thing generates only a smidgen less recoil and gives you two more rounds that will only matter WHEN YOU HAVEN’T SOLVED THE PROBLEM WITH THE FIRST TEN!!! And like Ryan says, the cost and logistics of this round are horrendous, and likely will be for some time.
While I won’t say that Federal SHOULD be putting their eggs into this thing’s basket, if they are, they should be looking at hollowpoints in their CCI 115 grain weight range and slightly lower speeds to mimic the heavy-for-caliber performance of the 147 grain 9mm loads, which penetrate more consistently across all six of the FBI’s gel tests. THAT might get it closer to being the game changer they’re promoting it to be.
In a manually-operated, maybe suppressed carbine, I can see it as a nifty pest control tool. In the CCW culture where we already have GREAT 9mm offerings, nope.
I am sitting here thinking about this and I can not shake the thought that we are not the target market. In many countries, including India, I only mention India because I was doing some light research into something else in India lately, military calibres are prohibited for most people. 9mm, and, oddly enough, 455 are prohibited. The same is true in several different countries.
This might be an attempt to enter those markets. I am not saying that this is the only answer. I am a bit interested. However, I think the expected noise level may turn me off. The idea of a powerful civilian cartridge might not be as enticing to me as to people who are forbidden from using military calibres.
I think this round could really make a splash in some of the action shooting sports. It doesn’t look like it could make major pf in a few of the big ones…but I’ve been to dozens of 3-gun shoots and nobody has had me shoot my 9mm or 38sc over a chronograph.
50 psi sounds tailor-made for a 4.5″ pistol with a comp. Looking at the dimensions, it looks like 35 of them could fit in a ~29 round STI mag.
Better sd of a .312 bullet is going to penetrate as well or better than 9mm as well. Pretty much .32h&r + or .327 – on paper.
I’m not going to rush out and replace my ccw pistol tomorrow…but there are a few plusses to this new round. Factory support, high psi case from the get-go (Ive split thousands of 9mm cases getting one more firing out of them…sometimes only 1), higher capacity, etc. Its not revolutionary. If somebody makes a threaded and optic ready p320 slide and appropriate magazines I’ll give it a try.
Unless they change the rules, this round is too small to be used in action shooting.
I don’t agree with the ‘machines could be making 9’s’ or ‘where are my primers’ comments. If that were ‘the issue,’ then auto makers that can’t produce cars because of chip shortages should just switch to making 9mm and primers! Plus there’d be competition! Heck, every handloader around should stop making rifle rounds and switch to 9mm production to help out their buddies!
I understand ballistics and performance are super important, and more than just capacity, but at the same time my EDC is a .40 Shield and I’m considering moving to a 9mm in one of the new high capacity micros. If ‘bigger hole’ is the best consideration, then why should I change? In my mind, I have 7+1 and two 7 round magazines on my belt. If I change to a plus, for example, or a 365 like my wife has now, or a Taurus or Mossberg, I could get 12+1 easily and only 1 magazine of 12 – total would be MORE than I have right now. But if ‘bigger is better’ then that’s wrong?
I am glad you mentioned the 5.7 x 28. I had actually wondered if that would be a good round, due to the big capacity, etc. but wondered about availability, plus the Ruger-57, for example, is not a compact…
One last thought – I do think this is innovation, just maybe not as groundbreaking as advertisements would have us believe. I’m not offended if this prevents some more 9mm from being made…
I appreciate your comments! Perhaps the advertisements are what got me to be so critical?
As far as other manufacturers being able to help – is this not what has happened in our country in times of war? Perhaps I should have made the point more simply: focus on increasing production of 9mm instead of focusing on new calibers (that do take machine time, employee time, and resources).
LOL – yes that’s exactly what has happened in the past. Perhaps we are at that stage again – I don’t know. I do believe that there will come a day that 9mm is plentiful again. At that point, any new round is going to either be hard to launch because people have stockpiled the 9’s and are not interested or worse yet the makers will be blamed for trying to cash in on something new after we gave them our hard earned dollars for all the 9’s. 🙂 Either way, it’s a no win situation.
I think that’s a decision they ultimately have to make for their own business. I have to believe that they get excited with new stuff just like anyone else, so this has a non-financial return as well.
As someone who works for Ford…with respect to current auto manufacturers, I cannot conceive of how terrible a Ford made line of primers would be. Maybe special tools needed to remove and install, safety recalls, and an impossible to navigate customer service center. Dear God please no! FWIW I think one of the best innovations for self defense might go to belt fed machine guns though, so maybe I’m waaaaay off in this topic!
Great article and write up!! First time reader, I’ll definitely come back for more articles!
It took you a while to get there but for me the real issue is why put resources to a product no one is asking for when people are waiting in lines before stores open to get product that have a immediate demand. Put those resources toward primer production.
I think you glossed over the biggest marketing ploy they are using for this new cartridge as you layed out an extremely good argument on the merits for not adopting the .30SC at this time. That is that it is not one of those evil LEO/Military rounds developed for mass destruction but an entirely new cartridge developed solely for civilian self-defense. Yeah, my take on the Remington advertising and Jim Gilliland video is that they are initially targeting the awakened consumer with a slight bone tossed out to those suffering from recoil sensitivity.
if, as civilians, we were allowed to purchase Personal Defense Weapons and carry them as intended, I could see it being worth while [20 rounds in a flush fit, 30 or 40 round extended magazine, use in bursts, etc].
What about a 5.7×28 or 4.6×30?
That, is a LOT of hate for something 24hours old on the market, only seeing sales pitches, and never having hands on experience. No one trusted automatic transmission cars when they first came out. No one trusted microwaves when they first came out. And NO ONE trusted the 6.5CM over the 308 but look at it now. Assuming that Federal only has one machine that runs a specific caliber and has to be turned off to make this is ill informed and wrong. It’s just another cartridge offering my friend. No reason to burst a vessel over it so early. Let’s have a face to face in the ORP and I think you may loose some of your discord. You may not like the round but you will understand it better and appreciate what it really is. Not “hate it cause it ain’t it”
RLTW. Jim
Maybe I did wake up on the wrong side of the patrol base. 🙂 I’d love to talk with you about it, get more informed, and maybe change my opinion?
I appreciate you stopping by for a comment – if you’re up for a podcast about this, I think it’d be a good discussion.
– RLTW
Honest criticism is not the same as hate. Even if it stings, it drives improvement. This review seems very accurate, with many fair points.
This new cartridge offers no real advantage except MAYBE reduced recoil, depending on what you compare it to, or capacity, depending on what you compare it to…
We already have reduced recoil loads for nearly every caliber. It is an auto loader right? Is capacity really that big an issue? We came out with extra magazines years ago….
You’re welcome to show me what makes this better or “innovative” in sone way, but it’s gonna take alot. I doubt that I will buy one.
Hit me up! Be good to shake hands and change ideas.
I think you’re mistaking honest criticism/concern about a (yet) unproven cartridge (that you obviously have a stake in) for hate….
Since you mentioned it, while the 6.5 is indeed more popular then when it first came out, still isn’t more popular then the 308 overall.
It’s always nice to see new things introduced to the firearms world, but it’s survival will depend on more then marketing hype from the company that produces it.
You nailed it here: “resources dedicated to 30 Super Carry are resources that could have been used to catch up on 9mm supply.”
I wish Federal would stop chasing weak “innovation” and start paying more attention to the millions of consumers screaming for more 9mm, .38 special, 5.56, .308, and the vast array of standard calibers that have been so hard to find and so overpriced for far too long.
Whine, whine, whine. I’m not looking to carry it either, but I’m not going to cry because it exists. Innovation and trial is what the gun industry needs to move forward from the same old thing decade after decade. Good for Federal trying.
This is the sort of thing we heard about .327 vs .357. I’ve killed deer with the 327. Turns out it’s the better cartridge for what people want a 357 to do.
Oh, and I carry a .32 H&R because it in my use it hits harder than .38 and almost as hard as 9mm with another round in the gun. Sounds familiar…
With respect, I didn’t need the second paragraph to know you were a .327 fan. 🙂
This may not apply to you, but many people come to GunUniversity for an unvarnished opinion on guns, ammo, and gear. They’re tired of reading elsewhere that every new product is the next best thing – they’re tired of reading reviews that are really advertisements.
In some reviews, I get accused of heaping too much praise on a product. In this review I’m accused of too much whining. Those responses only tell me that I’m doing the right thing. Hopefully, when you see negative reviews like this, you’ll trust when I give positive ones.
If we’re not for you, that’s ok. I still appreciate you coming by to read our review and leave a comment. Just know what you’ll get here – honest real opinions, not wishy-washy middle-ground fluff nor paid shills. (in fact, notice there’s ZERO advertisements on this site?)
Thanks again.
Thanks for an honest review ! I really enjoy shooting my 32s – but out of a wheelgun 😊. Anyone remember the “9mm Federal” ? 🤔
Just seems like an ammo company trying to make more money with bs I will stick with my 9mm I’m almost positive 30 SC will become more extinct than the 40 S&W haha pour the 40 S&W gospel on me now and then tell me why the FBI and police went back to 9mm.
They went back to 9mm because of MONEY, pure and simple. The the same reason the US military uses 9mm. Anyone that has at least a high school degree understands that 40 S&W is better in every single way than a 9mm except for round count in the magazine. They compare a 115gr target round from a 9mm to a full pressure round in a 40 S&W for recoil then use a +P+ 147gr to carry, not apples to apples.
40 S&W. It’s like 10mm, for pussies.
The military went to 9mm because of NATO. Most LEA went back to 9mm from 40 because their personnel “whined” about noise, flash, recoil and it hurt their hands!!! I get really angry when the F.B.I. says they went back to 9mm from the 40 because the 9 mm was “adequate”. Forgive me but if my life or the lives of my precious ones are in danger, I WANT MORE THAN ADEQUATE”!!!
Also, the 10mm is NOT an elephant/bear gun. Check it out…it is very comparable to the .357 mag that most of us “older” L.E.O.s carried back in the day.
People have killed deer with .357 as well, not sure of your point?
Also while the .327 sure had promise it never gained the popularity hoped for on it’s introduction, was never produced in large quantities (firearms or ammo) in comparison to .357 either.
Same could be said for the .32H&R – another (basically) niche round that showed promise but didn’t really go where they thought it would – which is what I expect will happen with the 30sc
this is what they should have done…….I wanted it as a companion piece to a 327 lcr
https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/7.92%C3%9724mm
I’ve heard of people kill a deer with a 22lr, by hitting it in the right place. I could argue the point of the 327 being better than the 357 for what people want a 357 for. There is no empirical data showing the 327 stops a fight better or faster than the 357. Is the 357 my daily carry gun? No. But when I carry it, I count on it doing what IT does, stop fights, quickly and effectively better than just about anything else. I prefer to carry a 45 acp, but it hasn’t been shown to be as effective as a 357, yet.
That said, I need to see some actual data before I run out and buy this new thing. It may be the best thing since sliced bread, but I’ll need some proof, not just advertising.
I don’t really see the benefit of this cartridge either. There are plenty of 9mm carry pistols now with higher capacities. I’ll stick with my 9mm.
I reload a 7.62×25 Makarov with 100 gr HST. that works just fine for me, LOL
I believe you mean Tokarev, and I absolutely agree with you. The ONLY advantage I can see the .30SC having over the 7.62×25 is that there aren’t any modern pistols chambered for it. I really enjoy shooting my Zastava M57, but you can’t carry it cocked and locked, and there is no way I’m carrying a self-defense pistol that I have to rack before I can use it.
WOW, snarky is right. I was pretty early adopter of .40 S&W, for personal defense mostly because of snarky journalists reporting on FBI techie stuff about energy, yada, yada, yada. Oh, and also because my uncle’s brother (a T man) was issued a 9mm. After the 2 bad guys in the same firefight who had been put down with the 9mm got up and shot back at him, he went back and reclaimed his .45.
Now you say the 9mm is the best personal defense round. Well perhaps it is. But .380 is becoming pretty popular in spite of the current crop of snark.
I still love my .40s, both the full size Glock 22 and my little Kahr pocket .40. But I have since bought a mid sized 9mm. Was it a mistake that I first bought the .40s? Probably not.
I agree that 30 SC would not be my first recommendation for a first time shooter. But when I can afford to replace the brutality of my pocket. 40 with some other pocket pistol, I will certainly look at the 30 SC offerings at that time. The round is interesting, perhaps it has potential in case I ever get mugged.
What’s the pointing? Well I’m really tired of snark. The high level of your snark did not teach me anything I didn’t already know, it only made your words less pleasant to read. Perhaps you feel the snark is needed to reach some other demographic other than us old codgers, perhaps the oft maligned millennials. Well, I disagree. You are allowed to disseminate truth without sounding like, dare I say it, an asshole. I could have said jerk but sometimes snark has that effect on me.
I enjoyed reading this – you’re welcome to share your thoughts here anytime.
My father and I fit the “old codgers” label and we thought the article was both hilarious and informative. We have 120 years of combined firearms/training experience between us. One of us has a PhD in nuclear physics. The math doesn’t lie. The 30SC is an unneeded caliber (and is basically a slightly better.22). BTW this old codger has not 1, but 2 16 gauge Remington 870s. Just like all things with technology(I.e. phones, updates, AI, and the list is long) not everything new is a good idea. Sound like something we’re all used to by now.?
?I would only consider the .30 Super Carry if someone comes out with a Ruger LCP sized pistol chambered for it. If I’m going to carry a 9mm sized pistol, it will be a 9mm. I carry a Kimber Ultra CDP II in .45ACP. The LCP is backup
You should say snark more.
Snark.
I’ve always carried a 9mm largo and I’ve owned a couple 30 carbine pistols 30 carbine hurts to shoot. I’m a big ruger fan. But my largo has been my go to carry. I’ve got a pmr 30 and thought about carrying it 30 rounds of 22mag is a blistering round and hard to beat in a gun fight. Costly but you could whoop ass. Bottom line 30sc isn’t a option to carry. Largo is like carrying a 38 super. Enjoy your input on things a your no b.s. keep up the good work
i do believe the .40 S&W is a very good round for self defense. I have owned and shot almost every modern handgun cartridge known to man. never shot a man (thank God), but have shot my share of animals. I do consider the nine to be somewhat anemic for 150 lb animals. I do like the .38 super( not bad recoil, and high velocity), where I live, I like the 10mm
Ken, it’s all about timing. Back then the 9mm rounds are way different than what they are today. This is why the FBI is going back to the 9mm because
newer 9mm rounds meets and on some points exceeds FBI requirements.
Of note, notice that Federal compared only the HST rounds. The newer 380 Deep round according to Federal will pen 14 inches of gel after going through standard barrier material. BTW, this meets the FBI requirements for pen.
Mr snark did not mention the 15.5 IN penetration of the 30SC in his plus column. Deeper than 9mm or 380, isn’t penetrating the key to damage done. Will some one out there do the math on total damage, penetrating deeper! with a slightly smaller bullet expansion. Remember the thread about the man shot twice with 9MM got up and shot back he went to a 45 (penetration?) Also I OWN a 30 SC made by S&W it is the Shield Plus and has a 16 round mag plus one in the gun now where up to 17 deep penetrating rounds. Shes getting better. I own every gun mentioned in the above post, except a 30 carbine and can’t imagine it as a carry gun. 30SC seems to be getting kicked around a lot by people who don’t have one or don’t have but one gun. I love mine and are proud to add it to CC line up of guns
We’re happy to hear that you’re happy with it! What does “She’s getting better” mean? Does that mean it’s not working well yet?
You’re correct, I don’t own one. However, I don’t need to own a 45-70 derringer to tell you it’s a horrible idea.
If you think of it as a replacement for 380. …It makes a lot more sense does it not?
Do we need such a thing? Don’t know …need a backup which is less likely to print?
Do you ever wear and a strapless dress;)
Or shorts…
Lots of potential..
Market not be a large enough market..
But…they are still selling 380..
I am thinking that the 30 SC is a solution for a problem I do not have.
An article in which every other sentence is trying to defend the “snarkiness” of the article…great writing bro
I disagree with your overall conclusions. The .380 has become very popular because it allows for really compact weapon with barely effective stopping power. I see the 30SC REPLACING the .380! The 30SC will allow for compact weapon with excellent capacity and much better stopping power than .380!
We agree that it has more energy than the 380. However, 380 pistols can be smaller because of the shorter length of the 380 when compared to 9mm (they are the same diameter). Since this cartridge is the same length as 9mm, won’t the pistols be 9mm sized? If so, I’d rather have 9mm. The only reason I’d consider 380, or a substitute, is to have a smaller pistol.
There is no way to put this round in a Ruger LCP, or anything of comparable size, simple physics will not allow a round with that kind of pressure to be used in that small of a firearm. You’ll need a bigger gun to handle the pressure, negating the benefit of the smaller round, other than increased capacity. As for those that don’t like the snark, hit the x in the upper right corner and don’t read it, problem solved.
It sounds neat at first, but like the short magnums, real world encounters will tell the truth about effectiveness and necessity of this round.
The Super Carry looks to be a rehash of the VBR cartridge. A shortened 30 carbine w/ .312 projectiles, proposed by VBR in 2008
30 Super carry uses the same bullet diameter as 762 Tokarev at the same speed. 30 has a slightly heavier bullet in a straight wall case. Less energy in the 30 SC than the Tokarev. Looks like Federal just tweaked the 762 Tok.
Thank you for being unbiased and authentic about your review of this, as well as your other reviews. I really appreciate the welcomed honesty. It should be a given in SD. But thanks man.
I love to shoot my SIG P210 and Luger P 08 chambered in .30 Luger full steel mantle delivered from a swiss army Contractor.🌞
YES 100% re U R logic,was cert firearms Instr-StatePD, 33 yrs Fed LE&DOD last 8 SOCOM.
Why fire less mass faster ??
I carried 357, 44Spl, 9mm. Ret now ccw9mm. For me. 1st is Location, Loc,Loc, 2nd is max mass @decent fps. I don’t want over penetration. I want full expenditure of kenetic energy into the lethal threat @ me. Why when carrying 9mm Why would I carry …less ?? 😳
The G48 has a 10 round capacity with factory mags and 15 if using the Shield Arms mags. Maybe you could up the Shield mag capacity to 18 but never the oem Glock. As to weight, that’s a bit tricky. What’s the cartridge weight difference between the 9mm w/ 115grn vs the 100grn SC? I would be surprised if it’s more than 15grns total, 437.5grns=1oz, we’re not looking at significant weight savings if capacities are equal and any advantage diminishes as SC rounds are added. As to pressure you make good points but omit one element…time. How long is the speculated 50k psi present? In short barrels not very long. BTW, 5.7×28 operates in the 50k range also. If we compare the SC to the 327 Federal Magnum I think we’ll see huge fireballs and muzzle blast, not always beneficial. I’m not touting 9 over the SC nor jumping on the SC bandwagon, just always interested in new things.
Oem glock mags for the 48 in 30 super carry would be able to hold 17-18 rounds. The reason glock 48 only holds ten rounds, is that the inside dimensions of magazine are not wide enough for 9mm to fully double stack. The inside dimensions of factory glock 48 mags is wide enough for 30 super carry to fully doible stack
If this is true, then that would truly be a game changer.
To me, this seems like an ideal compromise if you live in a country with a restriction on military cartridges like some European countries. Almost like an updated replacement for the 30 Luger but without the nostalgia or history.
Federal is pushing a dead horse! Not enough plusses for the negatives!!!!!! Keep trying, but this boat won’t float!!!!
The real issue is that a pistol is generally intended for close in self defense where stopping power is paramount. A .45 ACP 230 gr hollowpoint at 780 fps from a 3″ tube is going to transfer far more trauma faster than a 147 gr 9mm at 900 fps from the same barrel length. The .30 SC is certainly NOT competitive in this arena and, with 50,000 psi in a 3″ barrel the muzzle flash will be a significant issue.
An additional issue for the subcompact firearm species is the need to tame the slide recoil and velocity. This requires either a heavier slide, stronger spring, or both. For women and older folks this can be problematic as the stronger springs greatly increase the difficulty in racking the slide.
FWIW a .45 ACP loaded with 180 gr flying ashtrays at a real 3″ barrel velocity of 900 fps and 6 rounds is going to be just as controllable and a single torso hit generally ends hostilities immediately. A snubby .357 mag loaded with hot 110-125 gr +P+ .38 specials has many advantages – the LCR is dead nuts reliable and can be reliably fired from concealment in a purse or pocket with no need to draw it. At social distances (3 to 6′) it will do the job nicely with a very high degree of practical accuracy.
YES 100% re U R logic,was cert firearms Instr-StatePD, 33 yrs Fed LE&DOD last 8 SOCOM.
Why fire less mass faster ??
I carried 357, 44Spl, 9mm. Ret now ccw9mm. For me. 1st is Location, Loc,Loc, 2nd is max mass @decent fps. I don’t want over penetration. I want full expenditure of kenetic energy into the lethal threat @ me. Why when carrying 9mm Why would I carry …less ?? 😳 p.s. what I want is an automatic that will chamber my first love the 357. Cal…..
While I agree that federal missed the mark on advertising. This round has significant potential. I think you(and federals advertising) are underestimating the major advantages of the smaller packaging. While 20% capacity increase is huge, there is also the weight difference, both in the rounds and the pistols that can carry them. Take for example a glock 19 and a clock 48. The glock 19 holds 15 rounds of 9mm is larger in every dimension and over 3 oz heavier empty. The glock 48 with factory glock style magazines could hold 17-18 rounds of the 30 super carry, and still be several ounces lighter fully loaded.
As for your concern about pressure. As a professional in the industry, you should know better, pressure alone is a meaningless number. The only concerns are hoop stress and bolt thrust, of which pressure is only one factor. Comparing the pressures of different cartridges, is akin to comparing a thrown rock to a rifle cartridge, as the rock is heavier.
Hi Ryan,
Long time reader and first time poster.
The more interesting 30SC comparison is with the 32 H&R Mag, 327 Federal as a senior auto option.
Even the 32 naa as well.
It’s like comparing the 9mm to the 357 Sig ie more ammo less recoil.
Personally will take the Sig over 9mm for self defense.
Want to shoot cheap ammo, it’ll always be a 22lr.
My curiosity is more peaked with the loading of a 75gr Tac X or Hornady 80.
Also how this new round would fair in a Carbine ?
To me, a 30 Super would be a modern update of the Tokarev with improved case and shoulder angle.
Love the 32 cal for accuracy.
Enjoy your day.
Hey Pat I too am a fan of the 7.62×25 cartridge. With some ammo running in the 1400+ FPS range it is a superior cartridge to this new-comer. Too bad there are no modern pistols chambered in that cartridge. As far as the 30 super carry, I can see no reason for it.
Just purchased a .30 SC S&W EZ today. I have a dozen or so 9mm handguns as well as others in various calibers from .25acp to .45acp. While I don’t disagree with anything you have said, my reasoning is a little different.
1. I teach a lot of folks, and a lot of older women to shoot. They have huge problems with slide manipulation, as well as recoil. Around 90% or so adore my FN Hi Power with the 12lb recoil spring. This is not however, viable as a carry for a woman of either small frame or small purse.
2. I am 57, and am as strong as an ox at the moment, but this will not always be the case. When it is not, I would rather have a viable, less powerful option ready, and dialed in, with a supply of ammo and reloading dies before the next ammo famine or brass blight. 30SC is one of a host of calibers which can accomplish this. If it does not pass the critical eye test at 57, I will move it on, but I think it deserves a test drive.
3. I am a heretic. I think small calibers get very short shrift in the modern gunscape. 32ACP for instance, was plenty to start WW1, and end WW2 (in Europe), so by my thinking, it’s plenty lethal. .38 Special put paid to Lee Harvey Oswald and I am sentimental. The prevailing winds “more power” don’t fill my sails as much as putting the projectile exactly where I want it. People who claim the .25acp for instance “will just piss ’em off”, become oddly reluctant when I politely offer to piss them off. To this end, the 30SC is going to get a test drive.
Will it be the alpha and omega round the market guys claim? Nope. Bit it might be useful to 67 year old me, and he may dislike both 9mm Makarov and .380ACP as much as I do. Either way, I figure the time to develop contingencies is before one needs them. Just my thoughts
Great comments!
Does your point #1 or #2 change when I see that most people say that can’t feel the recoil difference between 9mm?
I mean, if it feels the same as 9mm in the hand, is a bit less effective on target, more expensive and rarer to find, I’m not sure I get why it’d be better when strength is involved.
Well,that’s the reason for a test drive. Recoil is, in large measure, subjective. I want to see for myself, and I have some land where I can simulate non range conditions to see. I did the same with 5.7×28, and .22 TCM for different reasons, and found both wanting. I also love 7.62×25 rather more than is healthy, but the pistols chambered in it are tractors, unsuitable for carry in most environs.
The nine, is unarguably the reigning champ. I owned 2x p365’s (and have 2x adult sons, you can math the rest), but as I said, I don’t want to read as much as I want to KNOW, and I know through my hands and eyes.
I agree with you for the most part. This has some merit if Ruger comes out with a new LCP max for it til then.. I’m about as uninterested as you.
Don’t think that’ll happen as the LCPs are chambered in 380 and this is the same length as 9mm with a lot off pressure. One of the more confusing points for me about this round – with 9mm length, it can’t be used in mouse guns.
I will agree that, especially for a new shooter, 9mm is currently a better choice. But I don’t want to sell this cartridge short. I used to carry a Walther in 32 acp with hot hand loads (it digested them with ease) and this is certainly a huge improvement over that. Eventually we may have even more compact guns dedicated to this new round.
My favorite today is the 40 S&W; you have the same arguement, a bigger hole, a lot more power, and only slightly less capacity. As a hand loader, this cartridge can be improved substantially, completely safely with pressure tested loads, to way over 500 ft lbs energy with a 135 grain bullet. But I’m a big guy and can easily handle the significantly greater recoil, that would be too much for many folks. So I would never criticize anyone’s choice of a 9mm.
All that said, I enjoyed and much appreciated the honesty of your review. I had just watched a vidio (different from the one that you mentioned comparing to 45 acp) that Federal put out comparing the 30 Carry to the 9mm. It was as if they had read your review, as they described the recoil as “about the same as a 9mm, perhaps a bit more snappy”! They showed the shooter firing the same gun in both rounds with a 115 gr bullet, a fair comparison. Have you seen this video, and, if so, did it change your opinion of their marketing?
I had only one quibble with your comments, where the comparison to 22 WMR was made. You said it had 324 ft. lbs. energy, but that’s in a rifle! In a handgun, it performs at a level similiar to a 22LR in a rifle, which is a whole lot less capability.
I’m not worried about a 50,000 psi rating, especially in such a small diameter cartridge. I’ve shot a 454 Cassul for many years with no problems at all; there’s nothing to be concerned about when a cartridge is matched to a strong enough gun. And I trust ammo and gun makers to do this. They don’t want to be sued!
I will probably buy a 30 Carry as more, and less expensive guns are available. If Federals claims to the anticipated price points for their new ammo prove true, it will be less expensive than comparable 9mm; time will tell. But as a hand loader, that is almost irrelevant to me. I have lots of 32 cal. bullets for my 32acp that will be fine for practice or plinking. I think with a mini red dot sight, it will not only be adequate for self defense, but should make a fine small game getter. Heck, I just like 30 caliber guns. I’ld love a chamber insert in 30 Carry for my 30-30 Contender! All of which has nothing to do with self defense, but shows why one might want to buy one. So let’s give the newcomer a chance.
I will look forward to your future reviews.
I like it, but I wish it was an 8x21mm instead. I look forward to seeing how Underwood enhances it, that might be tough at 50kpsi already. I hope someone builds an even thinner p365xl, or thinner AREX Delta M around it. I’d buy the thinner AREX and underwood ammo today.
Your opinions and comments are on par with those paid writers you complain about, who also neglect responsible ballistic data by ignoring ballistic coefficients!
Even with data in your face, with a 100 grain .313 bullet penetrating more than even a 124 grain .355 bullet with a lower BC than the .313 bullet.
It’s this same irresponsible conclusions and lack of attention to detail that killed Remington, you are presenting as anything worth reading?
Yes, I see you have many years of experience, but nowhere is it ever stated what experience. A real trained military marksman never ignores ballistic coefficients.
Maybe your experience is from riding a desk, telling everyone else how to do it so you never had to?
You’re right about one thing though…the .22 isn’t a reliable self defense caliber…but that didn’t stop another desk jockey, know-it-all from making it the caliber of the modern military, did it? Why? Because he also had many years experience.
You figured me out. I’m just a desk-jockey.
Totally and I mean TOTALLY agree. This new round will be forgotten within a couple of years because it is an “in-betweener” that accomplishes nothing new, solves a problem that doesn’t exist and damages people’s credibility. As you mentioned .45 GAP, don’t forget the .40 AE and .327 Federal that are useless calibers that didn’t impress or improve. With the exception of the .40 SW I don’t shoot anything that isn’t at least 100 years old. Stick with the basics and stick to what you know. Not what you think you know. Thanks for an honest review. Mike
Why would anyone want something that’s unproven . Cost plays alot to me.. I ll hold off for real world results. 9mm,380 ,40 S&W and 45 . Have proven themselves in self defense
So the Super Carry seems to have less performance than even the 100 + year old Russian 7.62 X 25 round. I guess this is what is viewed as progress these days.
Hand guns in 5.7 X 28 pretty much sit as that ammunition costs more than .223 rounds and has been noticably absent from shelves for the best part of a year now.
I think what the specs show is how impressive the 100+ year old 9 X 19 round still is.
How many things from a hundred years ago arw still as relevant as the good old 9 X 19 round?
The tok was the hottest round in production until the .357 mag came out. Small diameter but not a slouch. Beats 9mm hands down energy wise.
I must agree with you for the most part. This cartridge will probably be useful in the micro/ mouse class however.
But main defense? Only if I’m clad in a speedo 😁
Don’t forget the trusty J frame.
And now, I am 100% convinced that I will need more 9mm.
I absolutely agree with you! Just carry a dang 9mm!!! You said it all & perfectly…ammo cost & availability! Everyone into guns today knows the issue finding ammo & finding it affordable..A wildcat round like 30 super carry is not going to be at Walmart or your favorite mom & pop gun store! Don’t like it, Don’t want it, Never have it! Get a 9mm!!!!
Why, no mention of the .38 Super?
What handgun gets 324 ft lbs from a .22 WMR? I’ll take that over any .30SC or 9mm!
When the argument is 9mm vs 45acp the big argument for 9mm is ammo capacity… Now that there is something with more ammo capacity, 9mm fanboys want to complain about lack of power… Just be consistent.